Are you excited for the Lord of the Rings reread to begin? Because I guarantee you that your excitement level does not approach our excitement levels to be starting this reread. That is not even the main point of this episode, but it’s going to be the main point of this introductory paragraph because I want to really convey the excitement that I feel about it. HAPPY WEDNESDAY.
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Here are the time signatures if you want to skip around!
1:46 – What we’re reading
5:13 – Where we’re traveling!
9:57 – Lord of the Rings readalong
23:51 – Fictional morality
36:13 – The House at the Edge of Night, Catherine Banner
47:23 – What we’re reading for next time
Simon podcasts at Tea or Books! Check out his podcast!
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Credits
Producer: Captain Hammer
Photo credit: The Illustrious Annalee
Theme song by: Jessie Barbour
Transcript is available under the jump!
THEME SONG: You don’t judge a book by its cover. Page one’s not a much better view. And shortly you’re gonna discover, the middle won’t mollify you. So whether whiskey’s your go-to, or you’re like my gin-drinking friend, no matter what you are imbibing, you’ll be better off in the end reading the end.
WHISKEY JENNY: Hello, and welcome back to the Reading the End bookcast with the demographically similar Jennys. I’m Whiskey Jenny.
GIN JENNY: And I’m Gin Jenny.
WHISKEY JENNY: And we’re here with our 101st episode—triple digits—to talk about books and literary happenings, as always. In particular, we’re going to talk about what we’re reading; for the first time we’re going to talk about what we’re something else-ing, as voted on by our lovely patrons; we’re going to start our extremely exciting—
GIN JENNY: [SQUEE] [LAUGHTER]
WHISKEY JENNY: —readalong of Lord of the Rings. I had so much fun reading it. Yeah, I’m so excited too. I can’t wait. This time we have a topic suggested by listener Simon of Tea or Books. We’re going to talk about morality in fiction and how it differs from real world morality. We will at long last finish up the Hatening with The House at the Edge of Night, by Catherine Banner. And we will find out from Gin Jenny what we’re going to read next time.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: So we have quite an agenda today.
GIN JENNY: We sure do. I’m very excited.
WHISKEY JENNY: Me too.
GIN JENNY: The Lord of the Rings readalong is finally upon us.
WHISKEY JENNY: It is. I’m so excited. Can’t wait to talk about it with you. I can’t wait to talk about it with any listeners who chime in.
GIN JENNY: Oh my gosh, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: I’m just so excited for all the Lord of the Rings conversations in my future. [LAUGHTER] Well, Gin Jenny, what are you reading right now?
GIN JENNY: So I am reading The World Only Spins Forward, which is a book-length oral history of the making of Angels in America by Isaac Butler and Dan Kois. It’s kind of an indulgent thing for me, because I love Angels in America, and it’s basically just a lot of people talking about how great Angels in America is. So that’s that.
And I just finished reading The Power, by Naomi Alderman, which I had a lot of thoughts about. Did you read that?
WHISKEY JENNY: No, but I remember hearing about it.
GIN JENNY: I have a lot of opinions.
WHISKEY JENNY: Do you want to share any of them now?
GIN JENNY: I don’t want to spoil it for you in case you want to read it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Do you think I should?
GIN JENNY: Uh, gosh. I don’t know.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK.
GIN JENNY: It’s a good book. It’s a good, engaging book. I had a lot of problems with stuff that I felt like she left out, like gay people.
WHISKEY JENNY: Huh.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, there were some weird omissions. She really doesn’t get into any kind of intersectionality at all.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s important.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, it’s pretty important. So and it made the world-building kind of feel flimsy at times, which was too bad, because she’d obviously put a lot of thought into it, but just mostly about white people.
WHISKEY JENNY: Gosh, that is tough.
GIN JENNY: It is. And it’s a shame, because two of the four point of view characters are people of color, and she really doesn’t talk at all about how this change affects them as people of color. She’s really focused, like laser focused on gender. And I thought it weakened the book significantly.
WHISKEY JENNY: Interesting.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. What are you reading?
WHISKEY JENNY: I just finished Murderbot!
GIN JENNY: Murderbot! Oh my god, did you like?
WHISKEY JENNY: Sorry, I should call it by the real title. It’s All Systems Red, by Martha Wells.
GIN JENNY: I’m sorry I just blew out your ears, listeners. I just really love this book.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, and I read it upon Gin Jenny’s dear love of it. So thank you for that.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, you’re welcome. Oh, I’m so glad you liked it.
WHISKEY JENNY: I really, really liked it.
GIN JENNY: Oh, yay.
WHISKEY JENNY: I think we’ve talked about it before when you were reading it, but just as a refresher, it’s about a security robot who has hacked its system, and so is in control and basically has free will, but is trying to hide this from its employers. And all it wants to do is watch TV.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s all it want to do. It’s so sweet.
GIN JENNY: It’s really obsessed with watching TV and watching its stories.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: It was just so interesting about free will, and it was just really great. I loved it so much.
GIN JENNY: I’m so glad you liked it. It’s got a really great team up, so it makes sense that you’re really into it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it’s got a great team, full of grudging respect. An ending that I did not see coming, I’ll be honest.
GIN JENNY: Yes.
WHISKEY JENNY: It surprised me still.
GIN JENNY: It’s a novella, so I didn’t read the end.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s a super quick read, too.
GIN JENNY: And the second one in the series— I think there’s going to be four total in the series, four novellas— and the second one I think comes out at the end of May.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh gosh, that’s so soon.
GIN JENNY: I know. It’s coming out in May, I think there’s another one in August, and the final one in October. So they’re all coming out like bam, bam, bam.
WHISKEY JENNY: Wow.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, and I got an early copy of the second one, and it is also amazing. I might even love it more than the first one.
WHISKEY JENNY: What?
GIN JENNY: It’s hard to say. I really liked it a lot. I love this series.
WHISKEY JENNY: I guess this might be a spoiler for the first one, but can you tell me what the second one is about?
GIN JENNY: I’ll try not to spoil the first one either.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, good luck.
GIN JENNY: I think I can do that. I don’t think I have to say too much. I will say that it is about Murderbot trying to find out more about its past.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, cool.
GIN JENNY: It’s doing an investigation.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh my gosh. Does it feel like detective-y?
GIN JENNY: Yes, kind of. But ultimately the investigation is not the main focus of the book.
WHISKEY JENNY: All right.
GIN JENNY: It just is sort of the initiating event. And Murderbot makes some new friends, and I really loved it. I loved it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh boy, I can’t wait.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. Should we introduce our brand new segment?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yes, let’s.
GIN JENNY: Our new segment, what we’re something else-ing, we let our patrons vote on what we talk about. And in this case, you all voted for us to talk about where we’ve been traveling and what we’ve been visiting. And I slightly put my thumb on the scale of this vote, because I knew Whiskey Jenny had just been somewhere cool. So Whiskey Jenny, where have you been that was cool?
WHISKEY JENNY: I went to Hawaii! And also— well, first of all, I don’t think you put your finger on the scale. I think you put it as an option. I don’t think that’s undue influence.
GIN JENNY: No, I said in the post, Whiskey Jenny is somewhere cool.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh. OK, well then, yeah. [LAUGHTER] But yes, I went to Hawaii, and it was amazing. In a shocking twist that surprises everyone, Hawaii is really beautiful.
GIN JENNY: Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh. Did you see dolphins?
WHISKEY JENNY: I saw so many dolphins. I went snorkeling, and from underwater saw so many beautiful colorful fish. So many little fishies, just swimming around right there. I saw a little baby octopus. Maybe it was full grown, but it was small. It was not a giant terrifying sea monster.
From the boat I saw a monk seal and a manta ray, and from land I saw a sea turtle, sea turtles.
GIN JENNY: Oh cool.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it was great. All kinds of critters. And we went hiking, and the water really is that blue. It’s not Photoshop, or magic. It really is that blue. It really is this insane turquoise. I don’t understand it. We went to one beach that had black sand.
GIN JENNY: So weird.
WHISKEY JENNY: It was very strange to ponder.
GIN JENNY: So you have now visited Hawaii, the setting of hit TV show Hawaii Five-0.
WHISKEY JENNY: I sure have. I was trying really hard not to be like, oh my god, it’s just like in Hawaii Five-0. But y’all, it was. [LAUGHTER] I will also point out that Hawaii Five-0 does not need to use any Photoshops or camera tricks to make it look as beautiful as it does on the show, because it just really looks like that.
GIN JENNY: Do you feel it’s changed your relationship to the show Hawaii Five-0? The one set in Hawaii?
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: You know what, I do a little bit. Because its just so beautiful that you’re like, OK, well but they’re just shooting the pretty parts. But nope, it’s not. [LAUGHTER] So now every time when they do those establishing shots— which they do every five minutes in this show, just to remind you where it’s set— I’m going to have a good time being like, that’s what it really looks like! And I’ll have fun— I was on the island of Maui, so I’ll have fun going back and watching and seeing when they go to Maui. Because they travel around a lot.
GIN JENNY: Cool. So it was a good vacation.
WHISKEY JENNY: It was a lovely vacation, yeah. I was visiting a friend from high school, so I was staying with her also. So that was cool, to get not as touristy of an experience, I guess. Though it’s still pretty hard to not be a tourist.
GIN JENNY: Sure.
WHISKEY JENNY: Where are you traveling?
GIN JENNY: Well, mine is not as exciting. I didn’t go to Hawaii. But I went to see some tall ships along the banks of the Mississippi. They were in town for a tricentennial celebration.
WHISKEY JENNY: Ooh.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, and if you waited in line, you could go on board and see the ships.
WHISKEY JENNY: Did you?
GIN JENNY: I did. I went onboard one that was kind of newish, a newer ship. It was built in maybe 2010. And everything was extremely ship shape, I have to say.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, ship shape, was it? Was it ship shape?
GIN JENNY: It really was. And I actually, Whiskey Jenny, I took a picture for you that I meant to send to you. Because they had a little duty roster, and it was the most delightful thing I’ve ever seen. As we walked past, I was like, this is the greatest. Whiskey Jenny’s going to love it. I’m going to find that picture and send it to you. I forgot about it.
It was interesting. The ship we were on was 200 feet, I think, three masts and 20 sails.
WHISKEY JENNY: 20?
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s so many.
GIN JENNY: Because they have big— you know, because they have big and small sails.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, that’s just a lot. Yeah.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, no, it is for sure. But what’s weird is, OK, when I’m watching— I’m sorry. When I’m watching Black Sails—I really apologize—the three masted ships looks so small. Like from one end to the other, it’s not that far a ways to travel. And when you’re in it, you’re like wow, this ship is really big and I’m very small. Especially if you start looking up and thinking about climbing the rigging, which is what I was doing.
WHISKEY JENNY: You were looking up.
GIN JENNY: I was looking up, yeah. I was not climbing the rigging. [LAUGHTER] Although I wanted to. It looked scary— it looked scary but fun. I wanted to try it, but you know, obviously they weren’t letting people do that.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure, no. I don’t think you need to be clambering up there without any climbing equipment and ropes and stuff.
GIN JENNY: I don’t think they use climbing equipment. I think they just climb the ropes.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, they don’t, [INAUDIBLE], but you should!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: All right, listeners, Whiskey Jenny has no faith in me, so that’s fine.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t want you to fall!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: I don’t want me to fall either. That’s why I’d hold on very tightly with my hands.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well I just think it’s pretty high up, and you’re not in control of the wind or things. What if a bird comes out of nowhere?
GIN JENNY: I was telling my mom how all the people in Black Sales died in various ship-related accidents
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah! Just let’s minimize this as much as possible.
GIN JENNY: Sure. But anyway, it was striking to me how big these ships feel in comparison with me, a little human, versus how small they feel compared to the entirety of the ocean. It was fascinating. I love tall ships. It made me really, really want to go on one of those things where you can be on the tall ship for like a week, and they’ll let you help out with crewing it and stuff.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, neat. That sounds really fun.
GIN JENNY: Doesn’t that sound fun? And then I would get to climb the rigging. Ha!
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, maybe.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: I’m probably going to do it, and I’ll tell Whiskey Jenny about it and she’ll be like, well did you?
WHISKEY JENNY: No, I’ll believe you if you tell me. But I’m having trouble at this point believing that the company running these would let people just climb up 30 feet unprotected.
GIN JENNY: Well, we’ll find out someday.
WHISKEY JENNY: We will. Wait, I have a great quote about boats from Lord of the Rings.
GIN JENNY: Oh my gosh, OK. This is such a good transition.
WHISKEY JENNY: Thank you. And I thought this is relevant to our interests. So it’s at the beginning, and there’s all these rumors about this one couple that drowned. And some people are like, it was on purpose. They pushed and/or pulled each other down into the water. And Sam’s father, “There isn’t no call to go talking of pushing and pulling. Boats are quite tricky enough for those that sit still without looking further for the cause of trouble.” Very true.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so Whiskey Jenny, we read through chapter six, through the end of chapter six, for this first segment.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yes we did.
GIN JENNY: OK, Whiskey Jenny, how did you enjoy it? Because I loved it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh my god I loved it, too. I had a blast. I don’t know how you want to go about this. Was there anything in particular that stood out to you, or should we just go page by page?
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Well, one thing that stood out to me, I was reading the preface, and I thought it was so funny that Tolkien spent so much time saying basically, this is not an allegory for Hitler. Nobody is Hitler. So shut up.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: OK, so in mine it’s the forward to the second edition where he’s like, shut up, it’s not Hitler.
GIN JENNY: OK, well then it must be that, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: And then after that there’s the prologue, which is—
GIN JENNY: There’s a lot of stuff early on about hobbits.
WHISKEY JENNY: My notes on the prologue were like, oh my god, can we please just get to the story? [LAUGHTER] Can I read out loud a footnote that occurs in the prologue?
GIN JENNY: Yes, absolutely you can.
WHISKEY JENNY: So the sentence it is footnoting says, “For it was in the one thousand six hundred and first year of the Third Age that the Fallowhide brothers, Marcho and Blanco, set out from Bree; and having obtained permission from the high King at Fornost— see footnote below— they crossed the brown river Baranduin with a great following of Hobbits.” The footnote says, “As the records of Gondor relate, this was Argeleb II, the twentieth of the Northern line, which came to an end with Arvedui 300 years later.” [LAUGHTER] It’s like—
GIN JENNY: Oh, good. Thanks for letting us know.
WHISKEY JENNY: What are you talking about? [LAUGHTER] We don’t know any of these names. What are you talking about? [LAUGHTER] But I think it’s so interesting, because then—
GIN JENNY: Do you think it’s interesting?
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Well, no. I think it’s— there are a couple of things in that prologue that I was like, aw. Like how Merry gives a shout-out to how great Gandalf is at smoking.
GIN JENNY: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: They really love each other so much.
GIN JENNY: They really do. Yeah, I mean, the book starts out exactly how I remembered. Except a lot more time passes between Bilbo’s birthday party and when they set out than I remembered from previous readings.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, that’s true. It’s not immediate.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. I was really mad about it. So I have a gripe with Gandalf.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, yeah. Go on.
GIN JENNY: OK, he says that a shadow falls upon his mind as soon as he hears the story of how Bilbo acquires the ring, the real story. And then even after Bilbo disappears, he waits more than a decade— like, the one test he has to do is throw the ring into the fire to see if the words show up on it. But he couldn’t come to the Shire for over a decade to do this test? And then he’s like, oh yeah, but Sauron’s probably going to enslave the hobbits, so you have to do this thing.
And here’s what I did, because I was mad. I looked up a timeline for the events of Lord of the Rings. And I wanted to see how long it took between Frodo setting out and— I mean, spoilers, I guess?
WHISKEY JENNY: Sorry, I think we should talk about how we’re going to handle spoilers. Because we’re definitely going to talk about spoilers of the little part that we’re reading. But are we going to talk about spoilers for going forward?
GIN JENNY: Gosh, I don’t know. What do you think? I feel like we have to, kind of.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, but I think we should flag them. I don’t think we need to flag spoilers within— if it happens within the section we’re talking about.
GIN JENNY: All right. Makes sense.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, great.
GIN JENNY: So between Gandalf showing up at Frodo’s place and Frodo setting out, and Frodo actually completing his journey, one year passes. Sixteen years passed when nobody was in the Shire being all [HISSING] “Shire Baggins, Baggins!” [LAUGHTER] they could have done that one year trip and taken the damned ring to damned Mordor with a whole lot less trouble. But Gandalf was like, [DERP VOICE] well, I just gotta make super sure, wandering all over town, looking for Gollum. I’m not going to do the fire test, because I have to do this other stuff. Like, what the hell, Gandalf?!
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t know. Did he definitely know about the fire test?
GIN JENNY: [SIGH] I don’t know. It’s not exactly clear to me when he knew about the fire test. But I don’t know. It does not seem like he never knew about it. Like, he knew the One Ring had existed. He knew that much.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s true.
GIN JENNY: And the archives of Gondor were available for him to look at, to see what Isildur said about it and stuff.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, but also, you know, he’s on the council with Saruman, and Saruman is real creepy about his knowledge. He’s the expert on it, so maybe Gandalf was like, I can’t step on anyone’s toes. Like there’s all this academia intrigue.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: But for 16 years. And I mean, it really affected a lot of people’s fates. I’m annoyed with Gandalf. I feel like he did not look out for his hobbit friends in the way that he should have.
WHISKEY JENNY: I think that’s fair. I choose to believe that he didn’t know about it for all 16 of those years, that he knew about the fire test. And also I think, you know, he really didn’t want it to be found, obviously.
GIN JENNY: No, sure.
WHISKEY JENNY: Which is, no, he should have just like taken action immediately. But that’s a hard thing to do, to be like, all right, friend, you’re holding something that is going to end the world, so go on a journey.
GIN JENNY: I guess.
WHISKEY JENNY: But no, I think you’re right. I think he could have handled it better. But what I think is interesting at the beginning is I think Tolkien chooses the exact right part to start the story. It starts basically when Frodo gets the ring. And you get a little background on how Frodo gets the ring, but that’s the beginning of the story.
And I also think it’s interesting that going forward, there’s no crazy plot twists or secrets. We find out pretty early on that this is the One Ring, Sauron wants it. That’s the deal, and the deal pretty much stands up the whole time. And the excitement is in the journey and the things that happen and not in the revealing of secrets, which I think is really interesting and a testament to his skill at plotting. Which is especially interesting, because he started up with that really boring prologue!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Well, I was actually going to say, so you know that I love a road trip book.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: But this is a little bit too much road trip, this section.
WHISKEY JENNY: [MOCK SURPRISE] What? [LAUGHTER] Say on.
GIN JENNY: Well, I just thought that it took Frodo a really, really, really long time to set out, and we heard every detail of his planning process, and what happened to all his stuff. Like, all his stuff. And then when they set out, they really don’t do anything. They talk to some mean elves.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh my god, I’m so glad that you thought they were mean, too. Because I was like, the elves are jerks!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: I want to send you a screenshot. My notes literally say, “Elves are jerks,” next to the quote, “But we have no need of other company, and hobbits are so dull.”
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh my god! I could not believe it. And they’re just like, oh, our moonlight sparkles in our hair. We don’t need to care about anyone else.
GIN JENNY: Ugh, terrible.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: They’re the worst.
GIN JENNY: They’re the worst. They’re terrible.
WHISKEY JENNY: I also didn’t remember that Sam loved them so much, and so I’m trying really hard to like them for Sam’s sake. [LAUGHTER] But Sam, I think you’re wrong here.
GIN JENNY: Bless his heart. Oh, well, so one thing I really didn’t remember from the books at all is that Merry and Pippin and Sam have a tiny, adorable hobbit conspiracy to make sure that Frodo’s OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s so sweet. Uh huh.
GIN JENNY: Oh my gosh, I died.
WHISKEY JENNY: Let’s talk about that. I burst out laughing when they were talking about how they figured it out. It’s because he kept mumbling to himself about like, oh, I wonder if this is the last time I’ll ever see this valley. [LAUGHTER] Which, like, he mumbled that in the book, and it didn’t even ring a bell to me that like, oh, you’re bumbling that in front of people that don’t know that. [LAUGHTER] They pointed it out later and I was like, that’s a great job, Tolkien. That’s a good joke.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, I like it how Frodo’s like, but how did you find out? And Merry and Pippin and Sam are like, well, you were pretty bad at keeping that a secret.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: You kind of talked about it all the time. But I also thought it was really cute that Sam was like, OK, no, you can’t trust us to let you go into danger alone. Doing something that you think your person that you love dearly might not like but for their own good is a really brave thing to do.
GIN JENNY: That was Merry. I want to just like stick up for Merry, because I was moved by Merry’s loyalty.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sorry, that was Merry?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, but I wrote it down. Because Frodo finds out that Sam’s been spilling the beans about what he’s doing. And he says, well I can’t trust anyone. And Merry says, and I quote, “You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin to the bitter end, and you can trust us to keep any secret of yours closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone and go off without a word.” I got a little choked up.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, me too. That was the exact quote I was thinking of. It was so sweet.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, because Merry and Pippin are kind of played for comic relief in the movies a lot. And it was just nice to see them being super brave and loyal from the start.
WHISKEY JENNY: Absolutely. Yeah, all the hobbits are so brave. I love them so much.
GIN JENNY: They really are. I mean, I don’t know if it’s down to reading the book in a different political environment or what, but I found myself much more moved by the hobbits than previously I had been.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, wow, OK.
GIN JENNY: Cause you’re right, they are very brave, and the odds against them are very daunting.
WHISKEY JENNY: They are extremely brave.
GIN JENNY: And they’re very chill about it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Like Frodo, when Gandalf lays all this at his door, Frodo’s like, phew, man. I don’t want to leave home, but I guess I have to to save everyone so, we’re just gonna go. He doesn’t dither at all in his decision making. But yeah, I feel like that’s always what stuck with me, is how brave these sweet, sweet souls are. But what I was forgetting was how much they also love each other.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: And going forward how much of especially this book in particular is about how much that group loves each other and supports each other. Yeah. The fellowship. It’s really great.
GIN JENNY: And so then they go into the forest, which is terribly dangerous. And I am not surprised that I was not able to get through this book as a kid, because they are in the forest for a damn long time with nothing happening.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh right, you just mean it just gets creepier and creepier, and they get lost
GIN JENNY: Yeah, and it goes on and on and on and on.
WHISKEY JENNY: And they’re still wandering around. Yeah.
GIN JENNY: And they’re like, oh it’s dark. Oh, now it’s darker. OK.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Now we’re even more lost.
GIN JENNY: Now the trees are even more sinister. And then Tom Bombadil shows up.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yay!
GIN JENNY: Boo.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yay! What I want to point out is that Tom Bombadil shows up, but we still have a whole lot of meeting and talking to Tom Bombadil next time. So we get to talk about Tom Bombadil twice.
GIN JENNY: Yep. We sure do.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yay! In this one he just shows up and saves them from a tree! I don’t know how you can not like him in this one.
GIN JENNY: Because I don’t want them to have to be saved from a tree in the first place. I want them to get through the damn forest and get to the inn and meet Aragorn sooner. Because this road tripping is so boring!
WHISKEY JENNY: I am flabbergasted.
GIN JENNY: And I say this as someone who defends the Sam and Frodo parts in Two Towers.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Because they’re so great.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I think so, too. I don’t really understand why people don’t like them. But here we are.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t know, I really like that it starts immediately being dangerous for them. And not necessarily from the great evil of Sauron looking for them, but just from going on a long journey in the world.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Speaking of Aragorn, though, can we just mention, I think the one introduction of Aragorn that we get so far is a pretty great quote from Gandalf. We don’t get to meet Aragorn yet, but we do have one sentence about him, in which he is called “Aragorn, the greatest traveler and huntsman of this age of the world.” [LAUGHTER] It’s like, a pretty dope intro.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: It’s what he puts on his business cards.
WHISKEY JENNY: Not even one of the greats. The greatest.
GIN JENNY: Good job, Aragorn.
WHISKEY JENNY: Good job, Aragorn. Man.
GIN JENNY: He must have a solid hype man.
WHISKEY JENNY: Gosh, I can’t wait to talk about Aragorn, but I’ll save it for when Aragorn comes.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I’m very excited to talk about Aragorn. So yeah, I mean, this section was good, I was really excited to get started. But a lot of the stuff that I am the most excited about is, you know, the other characters.
WHISKEY JENNY: Aw.
GIN JENNY: I know, I’m sorry. I do love the hobbits, I really do. Like I said, I really liked the hobbits in this one. But also, you know, I love Aragorn.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, no, I have always loved the hobbits and continue to love the hobbits, so I will rep for this section. I teared up at the mere mention of Samwise Gamgee in the prologue.
GIN JENNY: Awww.
WHISKEY JENNY: He’s just a really beautiful character. I love him a lot.
GIN JENNY: He is. I mean, that’s inarguable.
WHISKEY JENNY: I have one possible bone to pick with Pippin, though.
GIN JENNY: OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: There’s one morning on their travel, before they meet up with Merry, where Pippin sleepily is like, hey Sam, could you make breakfast and a bath?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, chill out, Pippin.
WHISKEY JENNY: Is he joking? Is he sleepy? Is he just being really mean to Sam? Is this a weird class thing?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I think it’s a class thing. It does seem like Sam is lower class, and I think they think of him as— I mean, maybe I’m wrong. But I noticed that too, and I thought it was weird.
WHISKEY JENNY: I didn’t like it. It definitely is that Sam is of a different class and was in the employ of Frodo, rather than a friend, and didn’t go to the friend birthday dinner, I thought was a little rude. Since he already agreed to travel with you into the darkness forever. Like, maybe give him an invite to your birthday dinner. [LAUGHTER] But you know, Brits are pretty classist, I guess. Is that mean of me to assign that to Tolkien?
GIN JENNY: I think class is certainly a major concern in England I mean, and here. Not that I’m saying America gets a pass. Yeah, I was unhappy with that. I think we should keep an eye on that going forward.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, great. I got my eye on you, Pippin. Well, what did you think of the first meeting of the Black Riders?
GIN JENNY: It was good. It was creepy. I mean, it was definitely— yeah, the Black Riders remain creepy. Maybe this is helped along by having the visual in my head from the movies, but yeah, they’re really scary. And they were being really scary to a lot of different hobbits.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, they are.
GIN JENNY: I did not like it.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t like them being in the Shire. I don’t like that they sniff and crawl for things. It’s just real creepy.
GIN JENNY: And I just feel like Gandalf could have prevented this.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh. Yeah. I don’t think you’re wrong. A lot of different decisions could have prevented this also, though.
GIN JENNY: No, true. Maybe in future, going forward, in Middle Earth they should just make a policy of tossing all rings into volcanoes.
WHISKEY JENNY: All of them?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, maybe.
WHISKEY JENNY: It has to be special volcanoes, right?
GIN JENNY: Just do a big ring collection. Load ‘em up.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, but if you’re evil, you’re not going to give up your ring to the ring collector.
GIN JENNY: You’ll know that there won’t be any rings in the Shire.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, who knows? Maybe.
GIN JENNY: You’re right. I mean, it didn’t work in Sleeping Beauty with the spinning wheel, so maybe it’s a fool’s errand.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I like how hard that backfired, too, though, in Sleeping Beauty, because she’s like, oh my god, what is this magical thing?
GIN JENNY: What is it!
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: It’s so cool! I’ve never see one.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: That’s always how it goes.
WHISKEY JENNY: Anything else on this first part?
GIN JENNY: No, that’s all I had. It was terrific. A strong start.
WHISKEY JENNY: I think it is a strong start. I don’t think you do.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Well, the experience of reading it was a strong start for me. I do think Tolkien could have moved things along a little more quickly.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t think that this is the only time in which that will apply, also, though.
GIN JENNY: Sure. You’re 100% correct.
WHISKEY JENNY: The man loves a detail.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Boy, he sure does.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, so next time, we’re reading chapters 7 through 12 of book one, which will conclude book one of The Fellowship of the Ring.
GIN JENNY: Hooray! And someone asked if reading through chapter 12 means finishing chapter 12. Yes, it does.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yes, it does.
GIN JENNY: Should we talk about fictional morality?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, let’s do it.
GIN JENNY: So this is an email that we got from listener and friend of the podcast Simon who podcasts at Tea or Books, which I’ll link to in the show notes. And he says the following. “I was listening to a recent episode. I can’t remember what the book was, but Gin Jenny thought Whiskey Jenny wouldn’t like the book because it had lots of lying. I’m intrigued where moral compasses come in with books, because Whiskey Jenny is all about heist books. For context, I can’t enjoy books or films about heists or cons because I always think, what about the security guard who got fired, or what about the people whose pockets you picked? And I can’t go near mafia related books, which I think both y’all have enjoyed before. But people lying badly is maybe my favorite thing in sitcoms and I enjoy it in books, too.”
I love this question. I’ve actually been trying to think of a version of this question to have as a topic for podcast for a while, so I’m super excited that time Simon asked. And I made a taxonomy.
WHISKEY JENNY: I made a little one, too! Great.
GIN JENNY: Oh my gosh! Oh, this is great. Well, you go first.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, you go, you got, you go.
GIN JENNY: My first category is fictional immorality that comes with the genre. So in heist films, you don’t have to think about the real morality of crime. It’s like our crime, it’s just our crime for fun. I don’t really have to worry about the security guard who got fired. That’s not the story. The story is to be clever and fun. And if the movie makes me look at a sad security guard being fired, then it has messed up the conventions of heist movies. So I’m willing to suspend my moral disbelief for the sake of the genre.
Or like with vampire stories. The nice vampires have certainly killed many people in their past. And obviously, I don’t hang out with killers. But that’s the story. That’s the vampire thing.
WHISKEY JENNY: But I think it’s important to point out that you can suspend that morality, but then there are different moral rules that apply. Like it’s not just like, OK, well then fine, all bets are off. If it’s in a heist movie, it’s like, OK, well then the crime rules don’t apply in movies— or I guess murder rules don’t apply in vampire stories.
GIN JENNY: Yes. Oh, that’s such a good point, Whiskey Jenny. That’s so true. Because everyone’s got to have a code, right?
WHISKEY JENNY: Of course, yeah. They do if they want me to like them.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: That’s a great, great point. Now I feel like I have to rethink my whole taxonomy to accommodate for this. But, so then I have four categories of real immorality in fiction. So it’s not— you don’t have to suspend your moral disbelief. So real immorality in fiction, my first category is really immorality in fiction that I can get behind.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, yeah.
GIN JENNY: I can get behind people doing bad things in stories as long as the authors make a good case for it. And oftentimes authors will lose you and fail at this.
WHISKEY JENNY: Do you have an example?
GIN JENNY: Yes, I do. I have several.
WHISKEY JENNY: Great.
GIN JENNY: So in the Megan Whalen Turner books, the Queen’s Thief series, there are times—especially, there’s an event that occurs at the beginning of The Queen of Attolia—where a character does something genuinely unforgivable to another character.
WHISKEY JENNY: [GASP] Oh no.
GIN JENNY: And it works out— I think it works out in the end, because I think that Megan Whalen Turner makes a very good case for why they had to do that, that all the other options were worse. Or for another example, I’m so sorry, but the television show Black Sails. The main character does a lot of really horrible things and gets a lot of people killed. It causes a lot of inconvenience and harm to other characters that we are also asked to care about. But again, I think the show does a really good job of convincingly showing what his motives are and that other outcomes are worse outcomes, and he’s able to be extremely practical. I don’t even know if that counts as a morality, right? Because it’s picking from among a raft of bad choices.
WHISKEY JENNY: Right, yeah.
GIN JENNY: And then next up I have real immorality in fiction that goes unidentified, so where the author doesn’t seem to know that the thing is not OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: Eugh.
GIN JENNY: And that’s the worst one. That will really ruin my enjoyment.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. That’s very upsetting.
GIN JENNY: It is. I recently read a romance novel that I liked a lot, but the guy was constantly losing his temper a lot. And over small things, and really going in on people for not very much reason. And the book didn’t really address the problem of him being on such a short fuse.
WHISKEY JENNY: The book didn’t address it. He didn’t ever have to super apologize to his friends or the people that he was getting that angry at over dumb stuff.
GIN JENNY: That’s probably the worst one in my taxonomy.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Oh, for sure.
GIN JENNY: And then real immorality in fiction that the author does not want me to get behind. So that’s all fine. As long as the authors know it’s bad, it’s generally fine, with an exception I’ll get to. But that’s kind of the whole kick the dog to show the person is a bad guy. As long as the author knows, it generally is OK.
But then finally, my final category is real immorality where even if the authors condemn it, I’m still out.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh. What’s an example of that?
GIN JENNY: So shows like Breaking Bad or Mad Men or all those ones. I really can’t be bothered. I don’t want to suspend moral disbelief about how interesting and cool these people are, and they’re jerks and don’t care about anyone. That’s just not interesting to me. That’s very exhausting to watch.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure.
GIN JENNY: And this extends, I think, to certain tropes that writers, and especially people in TV shows and movies, will use to show that their villains are villainous. I’m really over people using misogynist violence to show how the people are very, very villainous. And Joss Whedon does it all the time where the villains are super intense misogynists, and it’s this almost voyeuristic portrayal of violence against women that I find really upsetting. So the show does know it’s bad, but I’m also angry that the writer went this route. So that is my taxonomy.
WHISKEY JENNY: I love it. I think it’s so helpful.
GIN JENNY: Really? OK, OK, I want to hear yours I’m so excited to hear yours.
WHISKEY JENNY: So mine is— I think mine starts out with the same distinction that you made, which is first it depends on if it’s set in our world or not. But what we’ve already touched on already is, that doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s magic. It could just be—
GIN JENNY: Oh yeah, great point.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Like it could be The Three Musketeers, which happens in the real world, but there’s no magic and like I’m totally fine with them sword murdering people for the right reasons. [LAUGHTER] So it doesn’t necessarily have to be like it’s vampires for you to suspend moral disbelief— which I think is a great phrase that you have coined.
GIN JENNY: Thank you.
WHISKEY JENNY: So within that—
GIN JENNY: Oh boy, oh boy. Oh, within that is good. I’m excited.
WHISKEY JENNY: Like you did, within those two categories, I did it based on characters. So my four categories— and they might be a little nuanced. I don’t know. We can workshop it. [LAUGHTER] So my four categories are characters you— and I didn’t even include, like, the Joss Whedon villains who you’re like, euck, I can’t stand them. But, characters you enjoy watching propel a story, but don’t want to do any of the things I’m going to explain.
GIN JENNY: Uh huh, OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: Characters you enjoy spending time with in fiction, which is a slight difference. Characters a fictional you would enjoy spending time with. [LAUGHTER] And characters you’d want to spend time with in real life.
GIN JENNY: The last category is very clear to me, but can you give some examples of the other three?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. So for the first one, characters you enjoy watching propel a story, I picked as an example Katherine from The Vampire Diaries.
GIN JENNY: Oh, sure, sure.
WHISKEY JENNY: Who is definitely an evil villain and does some very mean things. But she just goes about it in such a fun way—
GIN JENNY: She does.
WHISKEY JENNY: And propels the plot in such interesting ways that whenever she shows up on screen I’m excited, even though she’s real evil and is bad to the protagonist that we’re rooting for. The second category, characters you enjoy spending time with in fiction, for these I picked Boris—
GIN JENNY: Bor-ees?
WHISKEY JENNY: Bor-ees from Goldfinch, or also Tom Bombadil.
GIN JENNY: No. No.
WHISKEY JENNY: [LAUGHTER] Here’s why, though, is because I got so anxious wherever the story went where Boris wanted it to go. So it’s not that I like where he put the story. It’s just that I think he’s a really fun character. And for Tom Bombadil, he doesn’t necessarily— and I think this is why a lot of people don’t like him— he doesn’t necessarily further the plot.
GIN JENNY: No!
WHISKEY JENNY: But again, I just think he’s a fun character, and I like spending time with him in the book. But I don’t think I would like spending time with him in real life. Because he’s kind of chaotic neutral.
GIN JENNY: He’s a loose cannon.
WHISKEY JENNY: He’s a loose cannon and it would be stressful. And he’s also, he’s like nature, in he’s not good or evil. He could mess you up, or he could not. Characters a fictional you would enjoy spending time with— I created this one last, because I was like, ugh, but there’s some characters that I really, really love, but in real life still I’d be like, ew. So my example of this one is Damon in The Vampire Diaries.
GIN JENNY: Oh, sure.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. And I apologize that a lot of these are from The Vampire Diaries, but that clearly is a show that—
GIN JENNY: It’s a good and classic example.
WHISKEY JENNY: —causes you to question morality. So yeah, so that’s Damon, because I really love him. And it’s not for plot reasons; like, I’m in love with that character basically. But in real life he’d be a little scary.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: And then my last example for a character you’d want to spend time with in real life is Samwise Gamgee from Lord of the Rings.
GIN JENNY: Oh, sure.
WHISKEY JENNY: Relevant.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, I can totally see that. So what I wonder is— I like our taxonomies, but I’m not even sure we got to—
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t think we got to the root of the matter, though.
GIN JENNY: —the root of the matter. Why are there some things that, no matter what, they’re just no-goes for us in fiction? And I don’t know.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t know either. And I’m sure it’s different for every person what their no-goes are. We all contain multitudes, and we’re all unique butterflies of humans.
GIN JENNY: It’s interesting to think about, because some of it for me is clearly from real life. I mean, this isn’t a morality thing, but I don’t like reading about floods. But some of it’s not. Some of it is just that tastes for tropes differ, and I don’t know why that is.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t know why either, except that taste for everything differs.
GIN JENNY: I know. Why? Let’s get to the bottom of that right now.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t know that we can solve that root cause for Simon. I’m so sorry.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: OK, but I actually have a separate question.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, yeah.
GIN JENNY: OK, do you think that there’s a difference between how we perceive and judge fictional morality in prestige projects versus lowbrow or middlebrow projects, like books and TV and everything?
WHISKEY JENNY: Hmm. Hmm. I feel like you have an answer ready to go. So why don’t you chat while I think about it?
GIN JENNY: I’m not sure I do. I thought of some examples, but I’m not sure that I reach a conclusion.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, what are your examples?
GIN JENNY: So I was thinking about this in the context of maybe my two favorite current TV shows, The Good Place and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, neither of which I think would qualify as prestige television. But I think they’re really amazing art. I think incredibly highly of them; I think if the world were just, they would be the prestige-iest.
But they also have this tonally jarring thing where some of the time they’re using real life morality— like when on The Good Place they’re talking about how humans make each other better— and other times they’re using jokey show morality— like Chidi obviously is mentally ill, but the show often treats it as a personal failing rather than legitimately a mental illness. And Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, similarly, sometimes it asks you to take relationships and mental illness very seriously, but then at other times people, like, take out hits on each other and have to cancel the hits.
And I think that when it’s something that is not necessarily aiming for prestige but that I think is better than it needs to be, I’m more inclined to be forgiving of stuff like that. But I was thinking of something like Life After Life, which does have a kind of kooky premise, but still I want it to be grounded in actual real life morality. And if there had been a departure from that, I would have noticed it and flagged it as a failing in the book, in a way that I have kind of with Crazy Ex-Girlfriend and The Good Place, but I do think that I’m more forgiving of it, I guess.
WHISKEY JENNY: Interesting. I think I, in general, am less forgiving of flaws in prestige things, because I’m like, well, if you’re getting all this recognition then you better be good.
GIN JENNY: That’s true.
WHISKEY JENNY: And for things that I want to get more recognition, I am much more forgiving of. But I think also in those two examples, what Life after Life is trying to do is singular of tone, I guess. And Crazy Ex-Girlfriend and The Good Place are trying to cover a lot of different ground. And just from the fact of those goals, you’re probably going have more missteps in the one where you’re trying to hit a lot of different notes.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, it’ll be harder to marry the different parts together.
WHISKEY JENNY: Exactly.
GIN JENNY: That makes sense. That’s so wise. You’re so wise.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, but that only accommodates the three examples that you put forth. But I think in general, for prestige things—
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: All the examples in the world are covered within those three.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yup, we did it. We found them all. No, I think in general for prestige things, you better be good, or why are you prestige?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I think that that’s probably true. Because I had a lot of gripes with The Power that I think I would have had fewer— No, I don’t know that that’s true. I don’t know. I wonder if my overall positive opinion of it would have been higher had it not been laden with so much hype when I was going in. I think I would have still had the same complaints with it regardless, but I wonder if—
WHISKEY JENNY: Like already touted as an award winner.
GIN JENNY: Right. I think about that a lot. I worry about that. I worry that I’m not giving a real opinion and I’m just redressing a balance. Like with A Little Life, a book I really was mad at.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, but it’s impossible to live in a vacuum. I don’t think that means it’s a less real opinion.
GIN JENNY: OK, cool. Thank you.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t feel like we answered Simon’s question at all.
GIN JENNY: No, I don’t think we did either. I’m sorry, Simon. This is a difficult question.
WHISKEY JENNY: It really is hard. But thanks for asking. I really enjoyed talking about it. I think we’re going to get back into it as we go on. I think we sort of touched on, as he you said before. I think for me, lying, the thing that is a no go is lying to other characters in the book, or to me. But the lying entailed in a heist falls under, that’s the morality that we push aside for a heist book.
GIN JENNY: Right.
WHISKEY JENNY: So I guess we sort of touched on it.
GIN JENNY: I hope that we slightly sort of answered it.
WHISKEY JENNY: I’m trying to think what mob book we read, also. Because I generally— I sometimes like a mob story, but sometimes I don’t.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I don’t think I really like a mob story. That’s too scary. Yeah, I think one element has to be how close the thing feels to your real life.
WHISKEY JENNY: And mob stories sometimes get too close.
GIN JENNY: They do. Yeah, I don’t like that. But stuff where it’s, you know, vampires, obviously there’s no real vampires, so whatever they want to do.
WHISKEY JENNY: Or are they?
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Right, well, yeah. Well, speaking of tastes differing.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yes, great. We finally get to finish the Hatening. For the 2018 Hatening, part two, I hatened Gin Jenny to read The House at the Edge of Night, by Catherine Banner, which is a multigenerational family saga set on a fictional Italian island, tracing the family and this specific house from World War I-ish until present day. And I think the main review I’ve heard from Gin Jenny is that there was far too much bougainvillea.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, and I stand by that. [LAUGHTER] OK, let me ask you a question. Did you like this book?
WHISKEY JENNY: I loved this book.
GIN JENNY: OK, then I think this is our most successful Hatening pick ever.
WHISKEY JENNY: Really?
GIN JENNY: I do, because I think—
WHISKEY JENNY: Did you hate it?
GIN JENNY: I did not like it at all. I really didn’t like it.
WHISKEY JENNY: But did you hate it? Did you hate it?
GIN JENNY: Here’s the problem with saying I hated it. There was nothing the matter with it, and I didn’t hate the characters, and the writing was fine, and everything was fine. But every time I picked it up to read it, I was like, how is it possible that I’m still reading this god damned book?
WHISKEY JENNY: Wow. Yeah, that’s not a good feeling.
GIN JENNY: I disliked it so intensely. It was about 400 pages long. It’s not a super, super long book. And I’m a fast reader. But I felt like I was reading this book for 10,000 years.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh my goodness.
GIN JENNY: And I felt like every page I turned, someone else was moping under the bougainvillea. [LAUGHTER] I think that it’s possible that I don’t like books with a lot of bougainvillea in it, like across the board. I have a new hypothesis. I’m going to start finding examples.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, it’s just the bougainvillea?
GIN JENNY: I think it’s the bougainvillea’s fault. God, nothing happened in this book. At all. Nothing ever happened. The big dramatic moments were like, people in the book didn’t have enough coffee in the bar. And everything always happened offstage. And they were like, oh, who beat up the person? I don’t know. We’ll find out 200 pages later!
WHISKEY JENNY: See I feel like so much happened! Like it covers so many— there’s so many war stories. Everyone goes off to war and dies. That’s a lot.
GIN JENNY: Offstage! Offstage! Everyone stays home!
WHISKEY JENNY: A dude washes up on shore!
GIN JENNY: OK, that is one event that happens.
WHISKEY JENNY: They fall in love. That dude is cheating on his wife. And then they get back together.
GIN JENNY: Ugh. Thrilling.
WHISKEY JENNY: See, I just feel like so much happens. That’s so interesting.
GIN JENNY: It felt like nothing led to anything. Like you remember when Andrea and Flavio were friends and there was gossip in the village? It led to nothing. Flavio moved off the island. Andrea got a crush on Maria-Grazia— which also led to nothing! It was just a bunch of pining and then more nothing. And I just really didn’t like it. It felt like so much work to read it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh my gosh, this is so interesting. I think you’re right. I think this might be the most different opinion that we’ve had in book, on one of the Hatening books.
GIN JENNY: Yes, I think so too.
WHISKEY JENNY: Because I loved it. I feel like it definitely led to something. Like, the reason Flavio left was because he formed that bond with Andrea, who also had PTSD, and he was like, OK, maybe this isn’t the place for me. It’s just worsening my PTSD.
GIN JENNY: I’m pressing my forehead into my mic in exhaustion.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: And then Andrea and Maria-Grazia, it led to, later in life, them reconnecting, and then she was the one who encouraged him to give all this stuff to the townspeople, which was really sweet. God, I loved it! Like, it’s not perfect. it’s not perfect; I had several gripes with it. But I loved it. And I think what it tells me is that I love this kind of book. So if ever you hear about this kind of book, anyone, please send it my way, because this may be my favorite kind of book. I just, I love it so much. I really love it. So any books with bougainvillea, or any books with multigenerational families, send them my way.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I really feel this is a very striking area of divergence for us.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t think it’s just multigenerational family. I think it’s sort of like—
GIN JENNY: No, I don’t. I mean, this specific— I know exactly what you mean about that kind of book.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I love it.
GIN JENNY: This kind of book makes me feel exhausted.
WHISKEY JENNY: I love it so much. Send them all my way, if ever you get them.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Well and I will also say, listeners, that when I was reading this book in public, a woman walked up to me and said, this is the greatest book I’ve read all year. I loved it so much. I’m so excited you’re reading it. So Whiskey Jenny’s not alone. And I was polite to her. I didn’t tell her that I was hating it intensely.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s very kind.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. Well also, again, it’s not that I hated it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Right.
GIN JENNY: I liked things about it, I really did. It just felt like such a chore.
WHISKEY JENNY: You don’t like this kind of book, we’ve effectively found out.
GIN JENNY: I really don’t.
WHISKEY JENNY: So what would you call this kind of book? It’s not multigenerational. Yeah, like how do we classify this? Obviously we need a taxonomy.
GIN JENNY: God, OK, what are the things I hate about it? I don’t like the multigenerational family saga nature of it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: I hate this setting. The—
WHISKEY JENNY: Slightly mystical island?
GIN JENNY: Yeah. European island, especially.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure, yeah. But I don’t think it has to be a European island for it to be this kind of book.
GIN JENNY: But I think that I hate it more when it’s a European island.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure, oh sure.
GIN JENNY: That said, I don’t think I would like this book no matter where it was set.
WHISKEY JENNY: Right. So I’m trying to figure out what kind of book it is. It’s a specific subset of multigenerational, but I don’t know what to call that specific subset.
GIN JENNY: So what are the elements of it that make it particular? You know what I would say? I would say it’s a community book, like—
JENNYS: Empire Falls.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: So I love those. I love community books, and you do not.
GIN JENNY: I don’t. That’s true.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. We’ve gotten to the bottom of it.
GIN JENNY: Yes, we have. So tell me what you didn’t like. Because you said you had some complaints, and I’d love to hear them, because I’m sure I agree.
WHISKEY JENNY: What I did not like about it. I hated the two brothers that were fighting all the time.
GIN JENNY: Me too! That bummed me out.
WHISKEY JENNY: It was a really bummer of a storyline, not necessarily because it was badly done. But going back to our actual thing, that’s some real life morality that really bummed me out, about how awful they were to each other. Like, he stole Amedeo’s book of stories. After that I was—
GIN JENNY: No, that was awful.
WHISKEY JENNY: That was the nail in the coffin. I was like, man, you can’t do that. You can’t steal from your entire family just to get back at your brother. I mean, you can; people do it all the time, because families are weird. But I was done with that.
I did not like— so Amedeo is engaged to Pina, the schoolmistress. Before he gets engaged, he was sort of having an affair with the wife of the count, the countess, Carmela.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: And even after he’s engaged, he continues sleeping with her. Which the book says he didn’t want to, but she kept threatening to tell the town. And I just really hate the storyline of, like, it’s all the woman’s fault in the adultery, and the hapless man pulled in by her evil charms. I just thought it was dumb and I could have done without.
GIN JENNY: And Carmela never really gets a sympathetic edit. Most of what we see about her, she’s being a jerk.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah really does not.
GIN JENNY: Or pitiful. One of those two things.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. God, her husband the count sure hated her, too, though. Jeez. Yeah, no, he was a jerk, too, but we were never, you know, we never get her side of the story. We never get on her side at all. It’s just like, nope, women are evil sometimes. Which I didn’t like.
I guess that leads to Andrea maybe being a half sibling of Pina and Amedeo’s children, which I guess is important later on. But I just— cut that whole thing out and the book is basically the same.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I agree.
WHISKEY JENNY: So it was sort of unnecessary. Those are my two big gripes. I enjoyed the writing. I enjoyed all the details from around the island, which is probably what you hated.
GIN JENNY: Oh god, I hated it when they would be like, oh, now we have a second bar. Here’s what the second bar is doing. It’s like I already had to hear about the first damn bar.
WHISKEY JENNY: I was riveted. Yeah. But you know what I especially love, though, is restaurants, reading about restaurants and the community formed within a restaurant.
GIN JENNY: Me too, if it’s a romance novel.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, OK. Or like, did you ever read the Sarah Dessen where she works for a catering company?
GIN JENNY: No. That does sound fun.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s really fun. Yeah, and I just think there’s something about— there’s a lot of small children that grow up in the bar slash restaurant that I found really charming in this. And there’s just something about that sort of communal gathering place where you eat and drink, and the bonds that it forms, that I find really interesting to read about.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. I feel like a hostile jerk being like, yeah, it’s so boring, community bonds, pew!
WHISKEY JENNY: But you said you like it as a setting for romance novels.
GIN JENNY: I do. Yes, yes, I do.
WHISKEY JENNY: So it’s just the way the story is told.
GIN JENNY: I don’t know how to make the distinction. I hated this a lot.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t think it’s that you hate that setting. I think it’s that you hate this kind of book, and this one just happened to be set at a restaurant. But you like romance books, so if a romance is set at a restaurant, then you’ll like it.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: This tracks. This makes sense.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, OK. [SIGH]
WHISKEY JENNY: You’re very consistent.
GIN JENNY: [LAUGHTER] Thank you.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t think you’re a monster at all.
GIN JENNY: OK, good. Thank you.
WHISKEY JENNY: We all have different opinions.
GIN JENNY: Indeed we do.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, you know, I’m sorry. I have one other gripe with Amedeo. So Pina finds out that he slept with Carmela on their wedding eve. And she is like, OK, I’ll forgive you if you do this one thing for me. Let’s just move somewhere else where not everyone knows our business. And obviously for the book purposes, I’m glad they stayed, because that’s the story. [LAUGHTER] And their whole family growing up on this island in this house and things. But I was really mad at Amedeo for being— in response to that he was like, ooh, ask me anything else. Just like, naw, dude. You don’t have bargaining power here.
GIN JENNY: Yeah!
WHISKEY JENNY: You have to be like, OK, you’re right. We’ll move to Florence, and thank you so much for forgiving me.
GIN JENNY: Yup. I completely agree.
WHISKEY JENNY: But that relationship really came around for me, and I was rooting a lot for them. I think it was so sweet that after she died Amedeo starts a pen correspondence with a poet who was an intellectual imprisoned on the island during World War II by the fascists, and pre-World War II. And Pina— being awesome, was always the one who was like, no, let’s employ them, and let’s not be fascist. Don’t you dare vote for the fascists. I’m so mad that you voted for the fascists— had I would say an intellectual relationship with this poet. And after she died, Amedeo and the poet have a correspondence, just about how great Pina is. They just write back compliments.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, that’s nice.
WHISKEY JENNY: Back and forth, which I think is so charming.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, that was really sweet. And I was glad it ended up that way, because I was mad at Amedeo for being like, grr, she’s hanging out with another man.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. I think the implication of the book was that they were just hanging out, but that it was a very deep emotional bond. Because Maria-Grazia witnessed the flower of the bougainvillea pressed into her hand.
GIN JENNY: Eugh.
WHISKEY JENNY: And then later on it happens to her and she’s like, oh, OK. So that’s an important gesture. Got it, got it. [LAUGHTER] So much bougainvillea. I hope we’re saying it right, because we’re saying that word a lot in this podcast.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I hope we are, too.
WHISKEY JENNY: Too late now.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, since it’s my enemy, I don’t feel like I have to pronounce it right.
WHISKEY JENNY: What about jasmine? How do you feel about jasmine?
GIN JENNY: I like jasmine. I think I feel more positive about jasmine in books.
WHISKEY JENNY: Cool.
GIN JENNY: And in real life. Because I know what jasmine is, and I don’t necessarily know what bougainvillea is. [LAUGHTER] Also my dog is named Jasmine.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, there you go. Yeah, that’s true. Is there anything else that you did like?
GIN JENNY: I mean, like I said, there wasn’t anything in particular that, as I was reading it, I thought, wow I hate this for reasons I can identify. I was just extremely bored.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. But during your boredom, there wasn’t anything that you were like, OK, I’m not bored with this.
GIN JENNY: I mean, kind of. I cared a little bit about some stuff, but then it took so long to find out the answer to those things that it was unsatisfying.
WHISKEY JENNY: Interesting. See I thought perhaps, because in my mind a lot happens, you might enjoy it. But as it turns out, in your mind nothing happened, so you did not. Which I just find a very interesting distinction. Yeah, so much happened! Like, three generations worth of stuff happened.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Ugh. I guess.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, gosh.
GIN JENNY: Did you like it enough that you would buy it or reread it?
WHISKEY JENNY: Certainly not in a while. Not immediately. But that’s a different— that means different things to you and me.
GIN JENNY: Sure. No, it does. I was just curious.
WHISKEY JENNY: I didn’t put it down and was immediately like, I’ve got to start that over again.
GIN JENNY: While you were reading it, did you tear through it, or did it take longer for you?
WHISKEY JENNY: Uh, I think it went pretty fast for me.
GIN JENNY: Man. I feel like I was reading and reading and reading and reading and reading and never getting anywhere. It was like one of those dreams where you’re running and you’re not moving.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, you have less fun when you’re not having fun. Or you have less—
GIN JENNY: Yup.
WHISKEY JENNY: You know. [LAUGHTER] Time flies when you’re having fun, and it does not when you are not.
GIN JENNY: So true. So for next time we are reading Happiness, by Aminatta Forna. It is about foxes and nothing else. Yay.
WHISKEY JENNY: Hmm.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: OK, no. It’s about a Guinean psychiatrist and an American scholar of foxes who meet on a bridge in London. And the psychiatrist is in London to look for his missing niece, so the fox lady mobilizes her network of volunteer fox spotters, and the psychiatrist and the fox lady become friends. And I dearly hope— you know what I wrote in my notes?
WHISKEY JENNY: What?
GIN JENNY: I wrote “I dearly hope the fox is found in the end.” But that’s not what I meant. I meant the niece. I hope the niece is found.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: So wait, he’s in town because of his niece? I thought he was in town for a conference.
GIN JENNY: He’s in town for a conference and he’s also looking for his niece.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, cool.
GIN JENNY: He’s looking for his niece while in town for a conference.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I hope they find the niece and the fox.
GIN JENNY: Well I think, you know, I don’t know that there’s one specific fox— well, we’ll find out, I guess. We’ll find out about the fox.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I’m glad that you also have glommed onto the fox aspect of this book.
GIN JENNY: I really have.
WHISKEY JENNY: Because that really sold it for me, and I feel like it’s going to be a pretty small part of the book and I’m going to be disappointed. But I’m like, great, foxes, ready to go.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Full time foxes.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Did you like the one fox in Lord of the Rings that saw three hobbits sleeping in a tree and was like, huh, that’s weird. And Tolkien is like, he was right, but he never found out why.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: You know that I did! [LAUGHTER] Ah, the futility of life. Yes, I did like that part. I flagged it as well.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Oh god, I love that book so much.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, so to reiterate, we’re reading Happiness by Aminatta Forna next time, and chapters 7 through 12, i.e. the whole rest of Book 1, of Fellowship of the Ring.
Well, this has been the Reading the End book cast with the demographically similar Jennys. You can visit the blog at readingtheend.com. You can follow us on Twitter @readingtheend. We are both on Goodreads as Whiskey Jenny and Gin Jenny. And you can email us, please do, at readingtheend@gmail.com. If you like what we do, you can become a podcast patron at Patreon.com/readingtheend. And we are so grateful to all the people who have already subscribed to support us. It is the best, and it really helps us out.
WHISKEY JENNY: Thank you so much!
GIN JENNY: And if you’re listening to us on iTunes, please leave us a review. Until next time, a quote from Freshwater, by Akwaeke Emezi. “I wasn’t sure what he was running away from, but I wanted to tell him that I was the wrong place to run. It was impossible for me to love him. He had too much hate inside, and he thought I would fall for words, as if you can get me with my own weapon.”
[GLASSES CLINK]THEME SONG: You don’t judge a book by its cover. Page one’s not a much better view. And shortly you’re gonna discover the middle won’t mollify you. So whether whiskey’s your go-to or you’re like my gin-drinking friend, no matter what you are imbibing, you’ll be better off in the end reading the end.