Listeners, I got my first electricity bill since summer began in earnest, and I am delighted to report that it is NOT THAT BAD. My central air and heat has caused me some stress and dismay over the last year, but it’s all proving worth it. If you are in a place where central air comes standard, I congratulate you and rejoice in our shared happiness. If not, I hope that you are finding other ways to keep cool, and I commend to your ears this, our latest podcast. We read Lily Anderson’s YA horror novel Undead Girl Gang and suggest some candidates for Great American Authorship who aren’t white dudes. Plus, what we’re reading, what we’re listening to, and what we’ll be reading for next time. You can listen to the podcast using the embedded player below, or download the file directly to take with you on the go!
Here are the time signatures if you want to skip around.
1:43 – What we’re reading
6:09 – What we’re listening to
8:17 – LOTR Reread: Fellowship of the Ring, Book 2, Chapters 6-10
23:44 – Great American Novelists (who aren’t white dudes)
38:17 – Undead Girl Gang, Lily Anderson
51:06 – What we’re reading next time
Here’s the Jonathan Franzen profile that Whiskey Jenny is talking about. It’s magical.
Get at me on Twitter, email the podcast, and friend me (Gin Jenny) and Whiskey Jenny on Goodreads. If you like what we do, support us on Patreon. Or if you wish, you can find us on iTunes (and if you enjoy the podcast, give us a good rating! We appreciate it very very much).
Credits
Producer: Captain Hammer
Photo credit: The Illustrious Annalee
Theme song by: Jessie Barbour
Transcripts by: Sharon of Library Hungry
Transcript is available under the jump!
THEME SONG: You don’t judge a book by its cover. Page one’s not a much better view. And shortly you’re gonna discover the middle won’t mollify you. So whether whiskey’s your go-to or you’re like my gin-drinking friend, no matter what you are imbibing, you’ll be better off in the end reading the end.
WHISKEY JENNY: Hello, and welcome back to the Reading the End Bookcast with the Demographically Similar Jennys. I’m Whiskey Jenny.
GIN JENNY: And I’m Gin Jenny.
WHISKEY JENNY: And we’re back to talk about books and literary events. We have a very exciting agenda today, a lot to get through on it. We will cover what we’re reading and what we read over the hiatus. I have several updates.
GIN JENNY: Oh, great.
WHISKEY JENNY: Our something else-ing topic, as voted on by our lovely Patreon patrons, is what we’re listening to. We will cover the final thrilling conclusion to Fellowship of the Ring.
GIN JENNY: Woo!
WHISKEY JENNY: Our topic this week is non-white dude great American novelists.
GIN JENNY: In belated honor of the Fourth of July.
WHISKEY JENNY: And, can I say this, in slight opposition to all the Franzen pieces coming out? [LAUGHTER] Mostly just the one.
GIN JENNY: Don’t trash that Franzen piece. It was such a source of joy.
WHISKEY JENNY: I mean, it was a great piece. But just the idea of Franzen being back in the running for great American novel contention, yeah. The book we read this time is Undead Girl Gang, by Lily Anderson. And lastly, Gin Jenny’s going to tell us what we’re reading next time.
GIN JENNY: Yes.
WHISKEY JENNY: Phew! So first item on the agenda. What are you reading?
GIN JENNY: I am reading The Great Gatsby like I said I was gonna. I’m so proud of myself.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, well, look at you, following through.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, exactly. I’m very excited to report that it’s holding up really well so far. F Scott Fitzgerald—
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s exciting.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, he’s a really good writer. And I agree with what you said before that it’s maybe not your type of story, and it’s not really necessarily my type of story either. But it’s sufficiently wry and self-aware that I’m able to enjoy it. And I’m hopeful that I’ll continue to all the way through. I’ll enjoy the whole thing and it will still be a book I like, which would be great
WHISKEY JENNY: Hooray.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, my only reservation, there’s been some slurs that people have used—there was a slur for a Jewish person that someone said in the book—which are mostly by—unlikable characters say them. But it’s still not super pleasant to come across.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure.
GIN JENNY: What about you? What are you reading?
WHISKEY JENNY: I’m currently reading the Unbeatable Squirrel Girl YA prequel, Squirrel Meets World, by Shannon Hale and her husband Dean Hale, I think. And I am almost done with it, and it is just the cutest. Jessie, our lovely theme song composer, lent me her copy. And it is so cute and sweet, I am loving it.
GIN JENNY: Aw! Have you read the comics?
WHISKEY JENNY: I have not, no. This is my first Squirrel Girl experience, and it’s delightful.
GIN JENNY: Oh, well I think you’ll love the comics. They’re also delightful.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yes, I can’t wait. But I had no idea till Jessie pointed out to me that this book existed. And it was by Shannon Hale, who has written a bunch of other stuff that I have really enjoyed, like Austenland and The Goose Girl and that whole series, and all kinds of good stuff. So very exciting.
GIN JENNY: Awesome.
WHISKEY JENNY: But previously—I just wanted to cover two other things that I read. I picked up the second book by Lish McBride in her Firebug series called Pyromantic. And she wrote the Hold Me Closer, Necromancer series, which I loved, and then—anyway, there’s the first book in this series, which was OK. I didn’t love it, though, like I wanted to, so I was a little skeptical of Pyromantic, which is the second in the Firebug series. And it turns out it was so great. I loved it so much.
GIN JENNY: Aw!
WHISKEY JENNY: My favorite part was there’s really scary kelpies as apex predators in this book.
GIN JENNY: Oh, wonderful sea creatures!
WHISKEY JENNY: But one of the scary kelpies becomes really, really protective of a young human girl who’s on the team, and it’s so precious. I love it so much!
GIN JENNY: Yay! You were telling me about this, and it does sound great.
WHISKEY JENNY: I think if it sounds up your alley but you don’t want to wade through the first one, you don’t really even have to. You can just apply to me, and I will tell you all that you need to know, and you can just start with the second one, and it will be great.
GIN JENNY: Terrific. I’ll probably do that, then.
WHISKEY JENNY: Not that the first one was bad, but it was just like, this one’s so much more fun. And then also I wanted to cover, because I know that it is relevant to your interests, I read Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, by John Berendt.
GIN JENNY: Yes! I was so excited about this. Listeners, I was really worried, because Whiskey Jenny asked me if this would be a good book for her book club, because nonfiction is often a challenge for book club discussions. And I said yes. And it haunted me. I was like, what if I’m wrong and the book club discussion is terrible? But it sounds like it went OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it went well. Yeah. Ashley in particular, Friend of the Podcast Ashley, who’s in this book club also, was very skeptical of this, a nonfiction pick. But I think everyone really enjoyed it and we had a good discussion. It was on a super hot Sunday, so maybe perhaps not as animated as it could have been had we not been afraid to move for fear of dissolving into a puddle of sweat.
GIN JENNY: Sure.
WHISKEY JENNY: But yeah, it was so much fun. I had no idea I was going to be so bananas. That book is batshit insane.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: It’s nuts. And he does such a good job of capturing the way different people speak, which is amazing to me.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I was really impressed at how he handled the myriad of different characters that he’s covering. I think he mostly did a good job of reminding you and himself that most of the people I’m talking about are white, very upper class, and this is not everyone’s story in this town. This is not the tale of Savannah; this is a tale of Savannah.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: You know, he could’ve done better, but I think he did try, and that was really helpful. And also, it’s just bananas. Can you imagine going to that town and being like, you know, this is interesting. Maybe I should write a book. And then a murder happens! [LAUGHTER] It’s just so weird. It’s crazy!
GIN JENNY: And that’s when the murders began.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: It really is, though! [LAUGHTER] So anyway, it was a total blast, yeah.
GIN JENNY: I am so, so glad.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t know what my previous impression of that book was, but it was not this.
GIN JENNY: I read it a while ago, but I think that I had the same experience. I was expecting something way less fun and charming than this book turned out to be.
WHISKEY JENNY: Totally. So yeah, holds up.
GIN JENNY: Yay! Well, what are you listening to?
WHISKEY JENNY: So I checked my Spotify history from this week. And I have a big deadline at work coming up. I’ve been really having to buckle down and charge ahead and get a lot done. And when I really want to take care of business, I like listening to dance music. So I’ve been listening to a lot of Fast and the Furious soundtracks, [LAUGHTER] particularly number seven. I think number seven is my favorite. And a lot of Pitbull. So that’s been fun as well. What are you listening to?
GIN JENNY: Music-wise, I’ve been listening to Dry the River, which is a late aughts alt rock band that plays these very slow, mournful songs, but they have really lovely and interesting lyrics. And then I’ve also been—so my guilty pleasure is not so much watching The Bachelor and Bachelorette, because it varies so much in quality from season to season that I often skip it. But listening to Bachelor franchise recap podcasts makes me feel so happy and nice. [LAUGHTER]
So my forever favorite was The Right Reasons, which was a Grantland reality TV podcast with Juliet Litman and David Jacoby. And I’m always chasing that high. But Juliet Litman has a solo podcast at The Ringer now called Bachelor Party, which is also good. And I also listen to Here to Make Friends at The Huffington Post.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, that’s a nice title.
GIN JENNY: Right? Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Me too, podcast. Me too.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: And Here to Make Friends has a Feminism Fail Scale, so at the end of every episode they evaluate the worst feminist moments of the episode.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s helpful.
GIN JENNY: I stopped watching this season of The Bachelorette because the bachelorette is so sensible and reasonable that she’s kind of boring to watch.
WHISKEY JENNY: Are we still on Ti—no, not Tia? Ra—Raven?
GIN JENNY: No, Tia was in the running to be the Bachelorette, but they went with Becca because she was agonizingly broken up with on public TV.
WHISKEY JENNY: Becca, that’s right. But someone that she likes used to date Tia?
GIN JENNY: Yes.
WHISKEY JENNY: And they’re friends?
GIN JENNY: So there’s three people whose names I know who are left. Because it’s hometowns now. The three people that I know are left are called Blake, Colton, and Garrett. And those names are all very similar to me, so it’s very hard for me to keep track of which one is which. One of them I like, one of them dated Tia, one of them is an Instagram racist, but I’m not sure which is which, and some of those might be overlapping.
Well, do you want to talk about Lord of the Rings?
WHISKEY JENNY: I do. [SADLY] Aw, yeah.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. So we read the second half of book two of Fellowship of the Ring, which was I think chapters 6 through 10. And they travel through Lorien, they fight some orcs, Boromir attacks Frodo, and then they split up. It’s the breaking of the Fellowship. It’s really sad.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. That’s what the last chapter is called, “The Breaking of the Fellowship.” Yeah. Oh my god, they spend so much time in Lothlorien, too.
GIN JENNY: I was just going to say, coming into this you had some concerns. [LAUGHTER] How was it in reality?
WHISKEY JENNY: It wasn’t quite as bad as I was anticipating, but still, I was like, oh my god, are we still here? [LAUGHTER] I don’t know why. Maybe it’s the same feeling that you had for Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, who you referred to as a trophy wife. But the Galadriel and Celeborn relationship just drives me absolutely nuts.
GIN JENNY: It’s so dumb.
WHISKEY JENNY: Why is he there? She’s the one with the ring. She’s doing all the work, but she still has to call him “my lord” and stand behind him, and it drives me up the wall!
GIN JENNY: Oh, no, it’s terrible, I completely agree. That’s in my notes as well. And now that you’ve said elves are jerks, I can’t unsee it. And I don’t know if, without your input if I would have had the same response, but it’s all I can think about. They are so rude to Gimli.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh my god, yeah.
GIN JENNY: Like, for no good reason.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s my first note. All caps, “Gimli is right to be mad about this.”
GIN JENNY: Yes!
WHISKEY JENNY: And Aragorn, our beloved Strider shakes his head and is like, dwarves are so stubborn. And I’m like, no! This is not Gimli’s fault.
So the elves decide when they first get to that land that because they have a rule that no dwarves can be there, basically—
GIN JENNY: Racist! Just straight up racist!
WHISKEY JENNY: Straight up racist. They’re like, you can come, but we’re going to have to blindfold you. And Gimli’s like, excuse me, I don’t want to come, then. Big problem. And everyone’s like, oh, don’t make a big deal out of it, Gimli.
GIN JENNY: And they just want to blindfold Gimli. They do not bring it up for any of the others.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s purely because he’s a dwarf.
GIN JENNY: It’s especially aggravating because they know that Gimli is someone who chose to come on this very dangerous quest to save all of Middle Earth. They have that information from Elrond.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. They have the update.
GIN JENNY: And he has indeed come through many dangers, defending the ringbearer and stuff. And moreover, it’s a bit rich to not trust him—I’m not trying to be Aragorn about it—but the elves are the ones who lost Gollum! The dwarves haven’t done anything!
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, they did lose him previously.
GIN JENNY: Elves lost Gollum, so I don’t think they can be up on their high horse about, like, dwarves aren’t trustworthy. Like, you lost Gollum!
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. I really enjoy that Legolas, though, is like, I mean, it’s not that big if a deal, Gimli. It’s fine, don’t worry about it. And then Aragorn is like, OK, so to make it fair we’re all going to have to be blindfolded. And Legolas is like, whoa, let’s not make any hasty decisions here. [LAUGHTER] Surely we can come to some sort of agreement. [LAUGHTER]
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: I did laugh at Legolas for that.
GIN JENNY: I did. That was funny.
WHISKEY JENNY: The nice thing, though, that does happen between elf and dwarf relations in this is Gimli and Legolas become besties in these chapters.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, it was just so sweet.
WHISKEY JENNY: So sweet. It’s all sort of offscreen. It’s just like they start going on more of the little scouting parties while they’re in Lothlorien. I guess because they’re like, well, Jesus, I guess we’re going to spend four months here. We might as well get busy.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, what the hell? Again with the timelines.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it’s very strange. So they start going on scouting parties together, and I imagine that is where their bond is formed. And then when they’re dividing up boats, they’re like, well, obviously we’re going to be in the same boat, because we’re buddies.
GIN JENNY: We’re best friends now.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: It’s so cute.
GIN JENNY: It’s lovely. But yeah, Celeborn just is a steady-on jerk a lot.
WHISKEY JENNY: Eugh.
GIN JENNY: Like, OK, the fellowship arrives. They tell him how sad they are that Gandalf has died. And instead of being courteous and sympathetic to his guests, he’s like, well, number one, dwarves are stupid. And number two, it’s pretty dumb for Gandalf to die in Moria.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah! Come on, man. Can they not mourn him without you butting in, please?
GIN JENNY: Seriously. OK, so Galadriel does correct him. She’s like, hey, that’s rude. And he’s like, oh yeah, my bad, that was pretty rude. But I don’t think you should have to be told that it’s rude to make fun of someone who’s just died to the people who are mourning that person.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Who he died in front of. You’d think he would have known that.
GIN JENNY: He’s been around for a while.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: As they keep reminding us.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: You know, I was glad Galadriel stuck up for them. But then she’s kind of a jerk too, and she tests all the fellowship members, suggesting telepathically that if they want to go home they could. Like, why? Why?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. I mean, that is kind of a jerk move, but also I see why. Because you want to see what’s going on there.
GIN JENNY: You know what? It’s none of her business. She’s not involved in this.
WHISKEY JENNY: I guess she is because she has a ring?
GIN JENNY: I guess.
WHISKEY JENNY: And all of the world is involved in this because the fate of the world depends upon it.
GIN JENNY: Sure. But she’s not going on the quest, you know what I mean? So for her to be like, I wonder if these people are brave enough to do this quest—like, shut up, man. They already have done it. So!
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, no, that’s true. Yeah. But I can see how you would want to do some recon.
GIN JENNY: I guess. Yeah, it just seemed like a sneaky, snotty way to do it. Like, poke inside their minds.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, absolutely. It’s a very elf movie.
GIN JENNY: It is. But I liked how Boromir said, “It need not be said that I refuse to listen. The men of Minas Tirith are true to their word.” It’s like, good for you, Boromir.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah! So what else did you notice about Lothlorien?
GIN JENNY: Well, I felt really sad for Sam, for a couple of reasons. First of all when the elves show up, they say that Sam was breathing so loud they could have shot him in the dark. And then afterwards you see him on purpose trying to breathe quieter. [LAUGHTER] I was like, aw, Sam.
And then also, I forgot this happened because it doesn’t happen in the movie. Galadriel shows Sam her magic mirror pool, and he looks into it and sees some of his own awful future in Mordor, and also the scouring of the Shire. And he’s really sad about it. He’s like, I don’t want to see any more magic. And he’s just being so brave, and it’s costing him a lot. And I really felt for him.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. He’s always in such an awkward position, where he—you know, eventually he’s the ringbearer himself, but he’s also the sidekick, the companion. So he always is a step behind, and Frodo’s the most important. And Frodo can see the ring on Galadriel’s hand, but he’s like, what are you guys talking about right in front of me? [LAUGHTER] Because I don’t see what you see. And he’s just always stuck in this awkward position where he doesn’t have all the same information. Not to mention the fact that he’s about to die at all times. Like all of them, but yeah. Sam.
I do really love the gift that he received, which is the dirt.
GIN JENNY: Yes.
WHISKEY JENNY: That he gets really emotional about.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. It’s dirt to help him grow plants when he’s back in the Shire. It’s very fertile dirt. I have to say, OK, she gives really cool gifts to people. She gives Aragorn a really fancy sheath for his sword and an expensive brooch. And then she gives Boromir a belt. And it’s like, we get it, you hate Boromir. I got it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Uck. Maybe if people weren’t so mean to Boromir all the time and offered to help Minas Tirith, instead of being like, well, if Minas Tirith could hold the pass, we’d be fine. Like, maybe help them out some and then he wouldn’t feel like he needed the ring.
GIN JENNY: Oh, I will say, my favorite thing is Aragorn—we find out that Aragorn’s plan was always that he was going to eventually go back with Boromir to Minas Tirith and defend Gondor. And I was like, that’s so nice. I’m so glad one person recognizes Gondor’s need and is going to help out.
WHISKEY JENNY: I thought we knew that Aragorn was going to do that from earlier.
GIN JENNY: Did we? I must’ve just forgotten.
WHISKEY JENNY: Basically before they left at Rivendell, I thought he was sort of like, yeah, I guess I’ll probably do that.
GIN JENNY: Anyway, it was nice. It was nice to see that reiterated.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it’s lovely. But even Aragorn was like, well, now that Minas Tirith isn’t holding the pass. It’s like, well, they’re trying, all right?
GIN JENNY: They’re doing their best, man.
WHISKEY JENNY: Nobody else is helping them fight the actual out front battle. Which still has to be fought. You can’t lose that.
GIN JENNY: Right, exactly. You have to hold that territory.
WHISKEY JENNY: Hmph.
GIN JENNY: But she gives Frodo a lantern type of thing, situation. And the line that she says when she gives it to him, “May it be a light for you in dark places, when all other lights go out,” is still just a really, really good line. It is justly famous.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. I love the lines when she’s talking about Sam’s dirt, too. “It will not keep you on your road, nor defend you against any peril. But if you keep it and see your home again at last, then perhaps it may reward you.”
GIN JENNY: Aw.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s just so sweet, and normal, I guess.
GIN JENNY: It is sweet. And I think it’s nice because Sam kind of keeps hope that he’ll get back to the Shire through everything. So it’s nice for Galadriel to reinforce that and be like, yeah, that’s going to happen. Potentially.
WHISKEY JENNY: So the brooch that she gives Aragorn is token from Arwen? Is that right?
GIN JENNY: Yes, that is my understanding. Yeah, yeah. I think.
WHISKEY JENNY: I vary so much between being—because all the Arwen/Aragorn references are very cloaked in the actual book. And I vary between being getting really annoyed at the Aragorn/Arwen story, because we get so little of it, and then it’s just these veiled references that I’m supposed to care deeply about, I guess. And I’m like, why do you have to be so coded about it, JRR?
But then there’s that one line where he is talking about the hill in Lothlorien, and it gets me every time. [LAUGHTER] Also, I think it comes right after a time when I’m like, I don’t care about Aragorn and Arwen! [LAUGHTER] And then that hill happens and I’m like, OK, I do care actually. It’s so sad!
“‘Here is the heart of elvendom on Earth,’ he said, ‘and here my heart dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread, you and I. Come with me.’ And, taking Frodo’s hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as a living man.” He said “here my heart dwells ever,” and he never gets to go there again! It’s so sad!
GIN JENNY: That is really sad.
WHISKEY JENNY: Aw. So yes, and then they finally leave Lothlorien.
GIN JENNY: In boats. They go down the Great River.
WHISKEY JENNY: Turns out a bunch of time has passed, because Sam’s like, wait, the moon moved. [LAUGHTER] And he thought they lost like two days and actually they lost a month or something? That part was unclear. It was like, eh, elf time.
GIN JENNY: Not really helpful, elves.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Really not, no. Yeah, so they’re in the boats, and then they have to fight some orcs. And it’s scary.
GIN JENNY: And I want it noted that as soon as Samwise Gamgee sees something he suspects might be someone following them, he tells someone about it, Frodo.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, he does. He tells Frodo, though, and then they both agree that they don’t need to tell anyone else. Guys, why don’t we share this information?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I don’t blame Sam. I know that he kind of follows Frodo’s lead. But I don’t know what Frodo’s problem is.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t either. I don’t know why he won’t share it.
GIN JENNY: Me neither And what made me really mad is that Sam refers to himself as being, quote, “no more than luggage in a boat.” And Frodo says, ha ha, no. You’re luggage with eyes. Frodo.
WHISKEY JENNY: Frodo!
GIN JENNY: You can take your bullshit and cram it directly up your butt!
WHISKEY JENNY: Seriously.
GIN JENNY: Disrespectful talk to Samwise Gamgee.
WHISKEY JENNY: Extremely disrespectful.
GIN JENNY: A living angel.
WHISKEY JENNY: He is also just so helpful.
GIN JENNY: He is really helpful!
WHISKEY JENNY: Just in the boats, he’s the one who’s like, oh no, let’s not run into those rocks, before they’re about to hit the rocks.
GIN JENNY: Luggage with eyes. What are you, Frodo? Luggage with eyes who’s constantly drawing the attention of the Dark Lord to where you’re at!
WHISKEY JENNY: Just don’t put the damn ring on, dude! It’s not that hard! I mean, it is hard. I know it’s hard. Because the ring wants you to put it on. But like, stop it!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: But then we have the confrontation between Boromir and Frodo.
WHISKEY JENNY: Mrr.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: This was actually—I love Boromir, but actually he comes off a little worse in that conversation than I remembered. I was like, oh, Boromir, man, no, no. This is bad.
GIN JENNY: It’s bad. I like a lot, though, is he gets this concept in his mind as to why the ring actually should belong to him. And it’s good, because it’s very reminiscent of how Bilbo and Gollum both had a narrative where the ring was legitimately theirs.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, totally.
GIN JENNY: It was really creepy and effective, and I thought that was so, so good.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s very well done. And it makes sense, too, that he’s the one most in need of a powerful, battle-ready army.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: It makes character sense, too. It’s just like, oof, yeah. It is not a good luck for my dude Boromir.
GIN JENNY: It’s not.
WHISKEY JENNY: I do think it’s funny that he’s like, OK, but we haven’t tried it for men. Like, everyone else caved under it, but what about men of Minas Tirith? And it’s like, what? [LAUGHTER] It’s an evil ring. They’re probably still going to cave too.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, Galadriel and Gandalf both felt like they couldn’t take it. So, um.
WHISKEY JENNY: Eventually we just need to say it’s the ring not the bearer.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: So Frodo puts on the ring to escape from Boromir.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yes. And then decides—he’s basically already made up his mind that he has to go to Mordor. And it cements his thinking that he has to go to Mordor alone. So he’s going to sneak down to the boats.
GIN JENNY: Right. And this is what I in fact found more unsympathetic in Boromir than just the original thing. Boromir goes back to the group and lies about what happened, so it takes them a while to realize that Frodo hasn’t come back to camp.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: I was pretty mad about that with Boromir. Yeah, he was tempted in the moment, fine. It’s an evil ring. But the fact that he didn’t go back and cop to it really, really was not OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: Not cool, man. But Sam uses his non-luggage brain and figures out what Frodo’s plan is and is like, nope, you’re not going without me, and throws himself into the water even though he can’t swim. And he’s a beautiful, beautiful soul.
GIN JENNY: It’s so sweet. And I like it because everyone else in camp just takes off running, like where’s Frodo?
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, that was funny. Aragorn’s like, but buddy up! And everyone’s gone already.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah. And he’s like, Boromir, can you go please get the hobbits, and I’m going to just watch Sam. And he goes looking, and Sam thinks through what is going on and how Frodo would have behaved and comes to a conclusion about where he is, which is just really—
WHISKEY JENNY: And it’s a correct conclusion. He nailed it.
GIN JENNY: He knows Frodo. He knows what’s up. It’s just a really great way for them to begin their journey together.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. So they go off in a boat on their own. And I totally forgot that that is where the book ends, because I think the movie ends a little bit later.
GIN JENNY: I mean, in a more sensible spot, I think.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah! So I was all ready, also, for the harrowing capture of Merry and Pippin and for Boromir’s redemption, sort of. And then it didn’t happen, and I was like, oh. Oh. But, no.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Oh, it was still so great.
WHISKEY JENNY: Do you have any thoughts on the book as a whole?
GIN JENNY: It was a lot what I remembered. I still found Tom Bombadil really irritating, so that tracks with my memory. [LAUGHTER] I think the biggest thing for me, I was surprised at how much the elves were jerks. I didn’t really remember that, and they are really big jerks.
WHISKEY JENNY: They really are. I don’t think I picked up on the racial coding that was happening the first time I read these. So that’s been a new experience. And there’s so much less fellowship than I was expecting. Like, they get started pretty late all together, and it feels like they’ve formed these unbreakable bonds, but actually they don’t spend all that much time together. They have two big battles—they have this last one and the first one in the mines.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, it’s not a lot.
WHISKEY JENNY: In my head it was so much more of them being all a team together.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: And then they split up. “The Breaking of the Fellowship.” It’s such a harsh chapter title, man.
GIN JENNY: It is. So for next time we’re going to start The Two Towers, my favorite in the series historically. We’ll see if that holds true.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh really?
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, I think it’s my least favorite historically.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, a lot of people don’t like it. They don’t like the Sam and Frodo in Mordor stuff. But I do.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s not that I dislike it. It’s just, of all this stuff it’s not my favorite. But don’t we get Ents in this one?
GIN JENNY: Yes, we do get Ents in this one.
WHISKEY JENNY: I do love the Ents a lot. And I love the beginning of the Ent relationship, too, for sure.
GIN JENNY: So we’re reading chapters 1 through 5 of book three, which is the beginning of Two Towers, for next time. So join us if you wish. Spot the mean elves—actually, I think we’re mostly done with the elves. I think this is the most elves we’re going to get, right?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. I think there might be a bunch of them at the end again.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, right, at the end. But for now I think we’re on an elf hiatus. So, yay.
WHISKEY JENNY: Woo hoo.
GIN JENNY: Well, our topic for this week was your brilliant idea, so do you want to tell the people what we’re thinking about this episode?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. So I think it was sparked by that article referring to Franzen as a great American white male novelist. So they did sort of qualify it like that, I suppose. But I was like, man, that title always gets thrown around to white dudes.
GIN JENNY: To white dudes, it does.
WHISKEY JENNY: So we thought we would throw it around to some some non-white dudes.
GIN JENNY: Woo hoo!
WHISKEY JENNY: Or some non–white dudes.
GIN JENNY: Yes, with an en dash.
WHISKEY JENNY: Get that punctuation correct, listeners.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: So important.
WHISKEY JENNY: For those of you taking notes at home. [LAUGHTER] So we each picked five people that we would like to anoint with the title of Great American Novelist.
GIN JENNY: Before we start, I have a question for you. As I was making these notes, I was thinking, this is hard for me because I don’t read that much literary fiction by American authors, and most of what I do read by American authors is genre fiction. And then I discovered that what I think is that a Great American Novel can’t be a work of genre fiction, that it has to be literary fiction. And I was wondering if you felt the same.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, I picked a couple of genre people.
GIN JENNY: Oh, good for you.
WHISKEY JENNY: I think you’re probably right in that the traditional interpretation of it is never a genre.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Unless it transcends the genre.
GIN JENNY: Right. I was sad to find this mental block in myself. Because I love genre fiction, as you know.
WHISKEY JENNY: Gosh, does that bring up a good point? Should we talk about, did you have any other qualifications or things they were looking for in these people?
GIN JENNY: Well, what were you looking for in the people that you were considering?
WHISKEY JENNY: I was looking for if I thought you really captured a specific American experience.
GIN JENNY: Mmhm, me too.
WHISKEY JENNY: —was one thing. Or if your books were like, an event when it came out.
GIN JENNY: Oh, interesting. OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: Not a Game of Thrones event, but an everyone takes notice sort of event.
GIN JENNY: I didn’t think of that, but that’s a really good qualifier. So can we start by you telling me one that the qualifier was that it was an event? Because I’m curious what’s an example of that.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, I crossed off Donna Tartt because I was like, well surely Gin Jenny will mention her, so I don’t have to waste a space on her.
GIN JENNY: That’s true. She’s on my list.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: OK, great. she’s one that I would put in that category of when there’s a new Donna Tartt book, it’s a thing, you know?
GIN JENNY: Mmhm. She’s published so few.
WHISKEY JENNY: For valid reasons, and yeah, because there are so few. So the other person, that I’m actually using a space on— [LAUGHTER] and thanks for letting me do that.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: This was not discussed, listeners. She just knows me.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: So the other person that I would put in this category of an event is Marisha Pessl, who, we read Night Film for podcast and have also both previously read Special Topics in Calamity Physics. And I mean, they’re not perfect books, but I think they are very impressive endeavors, both of them.
GIN JENNY: Ambitious.
WHISKEY JENNY: And I guess that’s another qualification, is the ambition behind the books, too.
GIN JENNY: That’s a great point.
WHISKEY JENNY: So that’s who I’m putting up on the board. Who’s your first one?
GIN JENNY: So I think I also agree that I wanted it to capture the American experience, whatever that may be. And I did also think about ambition. And also kind of—well, no, that’s not true. I was going to say variety, but that’s not really true. Although if an author does have a wide variety of things, I do find that at least interesting.
WHISKEY JENNY: Ooh, like within a single author’s oeuvre?
GIN JENNY: Yes, exactly. If they try different things.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, cool. That’s a good point, yeah.
GIN JENNY: I didn’t actually put that into practice. I said that to you, but it’s not really what I’ve gone by.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I think—it’s a good note, though, I think. We’ll pick it out there. [LAUGHTER] Yeah.
GIN JENNY: All right. Well, we’ve already spoiled one of my picks, so I’m just going to say it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, sorry.
GIN JENNY: Donna Tartt. Donna Tartt. No, don’t be. [LAUGHTER] I think each of her books is very local in an interesting way. Like, Secret History is very, very New Hampshire. The one I didn’t like—what is it, The Little Friend—is very much like the South. And The Goldfinch is several different locations, but I thought she did a good job with each of them.
WHISKEY JENNY: Totally.
GIN JENNY: That was the thing for me. And then also, yeah, the ambition and scope of her books. They’re all just big, strange kinds of books that deal with a lot of themes.
WHISKEY JENNY: Lot of themes, lot of plot, lot of characters. Yeah.
GIN JENNY: So I say Donna Tartt. Also, I feel like as an author, she has author mystique, you know what I mean? She’s always looking so cool in her author photos and is like, I only release one book every 10 years.
WHISKEY JENNY: Totally. Absolutely. Does she give a lot of interviews? I feel like no.
GIN JENNY: I feel like no. Also, I went to a talk she gave one time and I had her sign my copy of A Secret History, which is not something I really care about usually. And I gushed about it a bunch, and she was like, [VERY QUIET] thank you.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Man. Respect.
GIN JENNY: I was like, all right.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Sure. I guess that’s just her way.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I guess so. But that seems like a very Great American Author thing to do.
WHISKEY JENNY: Absolutely. [LAUGHTER] Uh, your praise is noted.
GIN JENNY: Right.
WHISKEY JENNY: My second one is, I’ll say Alice McDermott next, because I think that she also does what you said for Donna Tartt, which is really get into a very specific place and maybe time. Alice McDermott, I think her jam is Catholics in the northeast, I suppose.
GIN JENNY: My people! My ancestors!
WHISKEY JENNY: Your ancestors, yes. And I am not a Catholic in the northeast, so I cannot speak to its accuracy. But having read one, all the rest of them feel very familiar. So they’re at the very least consistent.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: High praise indeed.
WHISKEY JENNY: I just think that she also captures the giant range of emotions that often goes overlooked in small domestic moments. But there’s still just a lot going on behind the scenes of that one visit to someone’s shop, and that one conversation between these two people. So I think it gets at something in the human experience. How’s that?
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: It’s very good.
WHISKEY JENNY: Who’s your next person?
GIN JENNY: I’m going to go with another Alice—Alice Walker. As you know, I really love The Color Purple. The Color Purple is one of my all time favorite books, in my top 10 for sure. And The Color Purple is set in 20th century South, and I just think she does so well at exploring the racism of that era, and also writing about the ways that people found hope in very dark circumstances, but not eliding how much suffering they endured based on white people’s prejudice, which I feel like is pretty fundamental to America. So yeah, I just think that her writing is amazing. I don’t know what to say. I love The Color Purple so, so, so much. It’s, gosh, it’s so great. I could read it every year. I pretty much read it every year.
WHISKEY JENNY: Is that the one that you’re constantly deciding whether or not to Forcen me to read?
GIN JENNY: Yes it is.
WHISKEY JENNY: Where do you stand?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I mean, if we do the Forcening again, I’m definitely going to Forcen you to read it, for sure.
WHISKEY JENNY: What do you mean if we do the Forcening again?
GIN JENNY: I mean this year.
WHISKEY JENNY: We’re not going to do it again? I thought we were.
GIN JENNY: No, no no! I more meant, you might not wish to be Forcened to read The Color Purple, and I don’t want to Forcen you if you actually really don’t want to. Because it’s a rough read. There’s a lot of violence. It’s a dark book, even though ultimately, I think, really hopeful.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, we definitely will do the Forcening again. I think we both sort of forgot about it after this Hatening.
GIN JENNY: Yes we did.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: We should do it soon.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, we should reconvene the Forcening. OK. If, when we reach the Forcening, you’re up for quite a dark book, that’s probably what I’ll choose. Alice Walker, the best.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK. I guess these three are all more on the early side of their careers.
GIN JENNY: Ooh, exciting! That’s great.
WHISKEY JENNY: —than the previous Alices we’ve talked about.
GIN JENNY: You’re anointing them early.
WHISKEY JENNY: Or maybe this is like a Great American Novelist preview. I hope they become Great American Novelists, maybe? I don’t know.
GIN JENNY: I love it.
WHISKEY JENNY: But so in this youngster’s category, now, I’m putting—I think we actually read all three of their books, too, for podcast. I think maybe they’re all your picks, so great job choosing.
GIN JENNY: Thank you.
WHISKEY JENNY: The first one I will mention is Yaa Gyasi, who wrote Homegoing.
GIN JENNY: Oh, yeah, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Did we read that for podcast? We did, right?
GIN JENNY: Did we? I don’t—
WHISKEY JENNY: Did we not?
GIN JENNY: —remember. We might have. Gosh, we’ve been podcasting for so long, who knows?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, to humble brag. [LAUGHTER] It just gets hard to remember all the lovely episodes we’ve spent together.
GIN JENNY: Yes, it does.
WHISKEY JENNY: But I just thought that that novel was stunning. It had such a scope, it had such a hard structure to accomplish. And it totally nailed it. And I was just blown away by it. Every chapter is a different perspective, and it’s a different generation, starting with slaves from Ghana who get forcibly brought over to the US, and runs through the present day of all of their descendants. And it’s just, it’s breathtaking, really, I thought. So yeah.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, absolutely. It’s amazing.
WHISKEY JENNY: So I can’t wait to see more from her.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. OK, so my next one, actually—OK, so this is not so much a Great American Novelist nomination as a Great American Novel, which I hope is OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: It’s Americanah, by Chimamada Ngozi Adichie, who is Nigerian, so I’m cheating a little. But I think that this novel gets really deeply into immigrant experience and race in America in ways that I think are really interesting. And I feel like those are two—race and immigration are two really huge parts of the American experience, so I’m fudging it a little. But I think I’m right, though. It’s called Americanah, so it’s basically right there in the title.
WHISKEY JENNY: I think it’s certainly a Great American Novel. I eliminated her purely because I was like, wait, is she Nigerian-American or is she just Nigerian? And she’s just Nigerian. But I needed random reasons to eliminate things, so it was actually helpful.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: I understand perfectly.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: So I don’t think there’s any rules that you’re breaking. I don’t think we established novel versus novelist. But I agree that that book was so great.
GIN JENNY: Yes, it’s really good. I want to reread it. It’s been—I don’t think I’ve read it since we read it for podcast, so it’s been a while, and I want to—
WHISKEY JENNY: I definitely haven’t.
GIN JENNY: —want to go back to it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, the second person who’s only written a debut—I should mention, Homegoing was her debut novel, so it’s even more impressive that she accomplished all that. So the other debut author that we read for podcast that I wanted to mention is Brit Bennett, who wrote The Mothers.
GIN JENNY: Oh, yeah. Oh, that’s a good one.
WHISKEY JENNY: Which I think we both really enjoyed. It wasn’t perfect, but sort of in a similar way to Alice McDermott, I though it also did a great job of capturing the drama of family life and small moments, and it also had that ambition and scope, in that it had a sort of a Greek chorus character.
GIN JENNY: Which I liked a lot.
WHISKEY JENNY: So she gets points on the board for that, [LAUGHTER] for trying new things like that. And just the writing was gorgeous. What are all the Great American Novelist writing words I can use? It was lush. The prose was lush.
GIN JENNY: Lyrical.
WHISKEY JENNY: Elegiac, lyrical. [LAUGHTER]
GIN JENNY: Elegiac. Nice, that’s really good.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: So I loved her writing, and for both of these people. I’m just so excited for whatever they do next.
GIN JENNY: Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, now I’ve got an older entry into the category.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, hit me.
GIN JENNY: Which is Shirley Jackson, who I just love.
WHISKEY JENNY: Ooh.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, this is the closest to a genre pic that I had.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s pretty genre, right?
GIN JENNY: It’s pretty—yeah, it’s genre-y-ish, kind of.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: OK.
GIN JENNY: Well, because The Haunting of Hill House is horror, but if someone shelved it in literary fiction and not horror I wouldn’t be like, that’s absurd.
WHISKEY JENNY: Get it out, now!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: That’s ridiculous!
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Thank about what you’ve done!
GIN JENNY: Yeah, it’s definitely ambivalent if there’s any supernatural elements going on. I don’t have much to add. I just really think her books are super weird and creepy and get at the claustrophobia of being looked at in society, which I think is really interesting. And I don’t know, I just think she is the best.
WHISKEY JENNY: I think I had a very strange interpretation of We Have Always Lived in the Castle, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.
GIN JENNY: Wait, what was your interpretation?
WHISKEY JENNY: I was just like, I just wanted those two sisters to be happy, and whatever it takes for them to be happy, I’m fine with. Like, kill whoever you want.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: That is a hot take.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I kind of read the book as a happy ending at the end, because they get to just do whatever they want now.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Oh man, that’s amazing.
WHISKEY JENNY: But I think you’re right that it captures that skin crawling sensation of everyone dissecting you and being under the microscope. And I think because she captured that so well for those two sisters, I was 100% on their side no matter what they ever decided to do. [LAUGHTER] So it’s a testament to her skill.
GIN JENNY: Oh, wonderful. Well, good, I’m glad my choice is approved. What’s your final one?
WHISKEY JENNY: Of course, all of your choices are always approved. My final one is—we read him for podcast, but it wasn’t a debut novel. He’s got several out, so he’s maybe not quite as early in his career. But I just thought The Changeling, by Victor LaValle was—
GIN JENNY: Oh, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: —such a blast. And I guess this is my sort of genre pick. Well, it’s straight up genre.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: It was definitely horror. But I don’t read a lot of horror, and I was so impressed at what he was able to accomplish within that horror novel, and everything that he covered theme-wise and emotion-wise. I was impressed at everything that he was able to say about race and parenthood and ginormous topics like that through the sort of folk tale and fairy tales entryway that he picked.
GIN JENNY: I agree, and I read one of his other books, The Devil in Silver I think similarly did a really great job with dealing with a lot of issues in the carceral mental health treatment, and race as well, through the lens of maybe there’s a monster in this institution. So I agree, I think that’s a great choice. Also our only dude. Is that true?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I believe that is true.
GIN JENNY: Really happy with that, actually. OK, so my last one is Zora Neale Hurston. I just love Zora Neale Hurston. Separate from her novel writing, she did a lot of really important work collecting folklore, which is really important to preserve. They recently had that thing come out that she had interviewed a survivor of the slave ships, which is really an incredible thing to preserve. But also the book that I read of her, Their Eyes Were Watching God was again just a really great book about race and gender in America. I’m probably not going to reread it because it deals with the Great Flood of 1927, which is too much for my little heart. But it was a really good book, and she’s an amazing author, and I feel like everyone should be reading her books. Everyone without exception should be reading her books in school.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: She’s the one I feel most strongly is 100% Great American Novelist.
WHISKEY JENNY: Wow. Great endorsement.
GIN JENNY: And that’s all I got.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well hooray! Yeah, they’re all on the board now. It’s official.
GIN JENNY: If you have suggestions for Great American Novelists who are not white dudes, leave us a comment, or send us an email, or tweet at me. Because I had a hard time coming up with my list, and I’d be curious to get additions for it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Always. Well, for this time we read Undead Girl Gang by Lily Anderson, which was originally brought to my attention by Friend of the Podcast Ashley. In this book, our main girl is Mila, and her best friend Riley has just died. She thinks it was murder. The autopsy went down as suicide. And so she does a spell and brings her friend back from the dead. What did you think of it?
GIN JENNY: So I liked it. It was a fun summer read in a lot of ways. But also, oh my gosh, there were parts that were very, very, very dark indeed. So a roller coaster of reader response.
WHISKEY JENNY: Seriously! Yeah, it felt really packed in, too, to me. It’s pretty short, but there’s a lot of roller coaster twists and turns emotionally in it that I did not see coming. So it felt especially whiplashy, almost.
GIN JENNY: Yes, it did. There were a lot of tonal swings. Which in fact just kind of resonant with my past experience of Lily Anderson’s books. Mostly they’re super charming and delightful, and then there’s some dark as hell moments, and then it’s back to being charming. And you’re like, wait, did that just happen? But it did.
WHISKEY JENNY: Can we just—yeah.
GIN JENNY: Let’s start with the good stuff, I guess? The charming part.
WHISKEY JENNY: For me, the most charming was that when she resurrects Riley, she also accidentally resurrects two other girls who also died recently in this town, ah-ha-hem. And these girls were in the popular crowd, and they were not friends of Mila and Riley, and they were mean to them. But throughout the week a friendship formed between all four of them. And I found it really, really sweet.
GIN JENNY: I did, too. So I didn’t care that much about resolving the murders, and they also didn’t seem to care that much about solving their own murders.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Right. Which is an interesting stance, but sure.
GIN JENNY: It is, yeah. But I really enjoyed them all going around town buying clothes, or stealing clothes, or stealing food, and hanging out and developing their grudging respect. That was fun. And I liked that the book didn’t pretend that either side of them didn’t exist. It was true that June and Dayton could be really fun and nice, and it was also true that they were horrible to Mila and Riley when they were alive. So those things are both true, and I like that Lily Anderson doesn’t try to pretend one of those is canceled out by the other one.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I agree. It was well handled. And it’s not saying that, oh, actually Mila and Riley just misunderstood them. They have that depth to them.
GIN JENNY: I really loved Dayton. I was so charmed with Dayton.
WHISKEY JENNY: She was so nice! Yeah, she was great.
GIN JENNY: My favorite part is Mila’s trying to figure out how to do another spell, and she says, “Now we have to figure out where to get a calf’s heart,” and Dayton claps her hands and says, “From a baby cow!”
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, gosh, yeah. They were just great.
GIN JENNY: She was great. And she always tries to protect Mila. She goes with the flow, she’s really cool. She’s nice about being resurrected, which I would be pretty annoyed by.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. I think when we originally picked it we talked about this, but one of the things that Ashley really liked about it that I also did was the worldbuilding around the their zombie state, which is that they had to be within 100 feet, I think—100 paces? I don’t know. 100 somethings—of Mila and they look totally normal. But when they go outside of that zone, they look like scary zombies and they shamble around. And they don’t have some of their memories, but otherwise they are themselves. They don’t want any brains or anything.
GIN JENNY: Right. Yes, they do not. Which is great. I’m all for that.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I found it was a really interesting take on the zombie structure, and also really helped build that grudging respect that we like so much, because they had to be around each other all the time. I think the counter side to that is we don’t ever really get to see Riley and Mila be friends. We get to see Mila grieving her, and then when Riley comes back, she obviously is pretty conflicted about being brought back—rightfully so!
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: But therefore the only glimpses really that we get of their friendship is kind of muted. And especially in contrast with this beautiful blossoming friendship with the other two girls, I wish we had gotten more of their friendship before she died.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, no, I did too.
WHISKEY JENNY: Any other charming stuff?
GIN JENNY: No, do you want to talk about the traumatizing stuff?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yup, that’s all of the other notes.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: There were a couple of things. Where to begin? You go ahead, because there was one huge thing that was going to haunt my nightmares forever, but there were several other things that I was like, Jesus.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well OK, I would say a compliment of the sad things is, I think at the very beginning it is really accurate at the grief of missing small things. Like Mila says something about how the hardest part of Riley’s funeral is she doesn’t have anyone to sit with, because normally she’d be sitting with Riley. And she wants to text Riley all this stuff, and I thought that the everyday responses were really spot on.
OK, so the first thing that I was like, whoa, holy shit, is Mila’s family is not great.
GIN JENNY: No.
WHISKEY JENNY: And it’s not even really addressed. It’s just like, her parents are awful and are like, I don’t know, it’s been a couple of days. You’re not over your best friend dying yet? Why aren’t you over her?
GIN JENNY: Right, shockingly dying. Yeah.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: And she’s really—Mila herself is really mean to her sisters, but then her sisters are also like, I don’t know, could you cry quieter at night? [LAUGHTER] There’s a lot going on there.
GIN JENNY: None of the adults in this book are much good.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, no. But I kept expecting it to be like, actually, my parents didn’t say that, I was just misinterpreting it. At the end, we came to a mutual understanding. It was like, no, her parents are just awful the whole time, but it’s not the point of the book.
GIN JENNY: Which I guess is like real life. Teenagers have things happen to them that don’t involve their terrible parents.
WHISKEY JENNY: True. Yeah, but man they were terrible.
GIN JENNY: Yeah they really were bad. Another set of responsible adults in Mila’s life are the people at the magic shop.
WHISKEY JENNY: Mmhm.
GIN JENNY: They show up at the zombie hideout with guns and just shoot the whole place up while Mila’s inside.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. That was the scariest part to me. The old ladies, who she thought she could trust, with guns.
GIN JENNY: And they’re not sorry.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, not at all. They’re like, well, you shouldn’t have done that, so we were in the right. Um, no you weren’t, ladies. You were not in the right.
GIN JENNY: You just can’t show up and shoot up a house that contains children. You just can’t do it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Like, no.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, that was really, really alarming.
WHISKEY JENNY: You brought a bajillion shotguns to a bunch of children. What are you doing? So that was really scary.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, it was scary. And at the end the adults are like, well, it was your own fault. And Mila’s like, OK, I can kind of see that. It’s like, no! Nuh-uh!
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t know, I kind of feel like it was the fault of the people with the shotguns.
GIN JENNY: Yeah! And Mila’s like, yeah, I should be more responsible. Like, no! [LAUGHTER]
WHISKEY JENNY: Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
GIN JENNY: I mean, she should be more responsible, but shotguns are not an appropriate response.
WHISKEY JENNY: Agreed. Yeah, for sure. Also I don’t feel like the girls were that much of abominations. They’re going to go back in their grave at the end of seven days. I don’t understand what the big deal was.
GIN JENNY: And they were being pretty nice and chill. They did a couple of dead girl shenanigans that they oughtn’t. [LAUGHTER] But when they were alive, they did live girl shenanigans that they oughtn’t. So settle down.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, they didn’t come out at anyone with shotguns, either, so in the grand tally here [LAUGHTER] of shotguns.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, the magic shop owner’s not coming out ahead.
WHISKEY JENNY: Not at all. OK, the next traumatizing thing I want to talk about is Riley and Mila’s fight. Is it time for spoilers? can we do spoilers now?
GIN JENNY: It is now the spoiler section.
WHISKEY JENNY: So it turns out that the person who’s been doing all the murders is Riley’s older brother Xander, who Mila has always had a crush on, and who has been becoming closer and closer with after Riley’s death. They don’t have—they’re pretty sure it’s him, but Mila’s like, OK, well, we have to end him now. And Riley’s like, I need a little time, because he’s my brother and it’s hard for me to believe this, and maybe there’s another explanation, and I don’t think we should jump to conclusions. And Mila gets so furious at her for not thinking her brother is a murderer. And calls her an abomination.
GIN JENNY: Oh no, yeah, that’s right.
WHISKEY JENNY: And leaves her, which is even worse than just leaving the person who you were a ride for, which she is. But Riley is super dependent on her. She doesn’t have a cell phone. She can’t call anyone else. She doesn’t have any—
GIN JENNY: Recourse.
WHISKEY JENNY: —other people she can call. She has literally nothing else she can do. She can’t be seen around town because A, she’s supposed to be dead, and B, when Mila leaves she’ll turn into a zombie looking person. And it was just like, that’s not even a bridge too far. That’s a continent to far. [LAUGHTER] You just can’t do that to her. And she did. And then at the end, Riley had to apologize to Mila and was like, I’m sorry I didn’t immediately believe my brother was a murderer. And Mila’s like, that’s OK, I understand, [LAUGHTER] and never apologizes for her horrible behavior. I was so upset about that.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, and especially because Riley did not ask to be resurrected. That’s all on Mila.
WHISKEY JENNY: No. She did not.
GIN JENNY: So Mila has resurrected her and then stranded her. That’s terrible.
WHISKEY JENNY: Can I just read the passage? Because reading the words again are, oh my god. “‘The coven was right,’ I say softly. ‘You’re an abomination. My best friend, my real best friend, wouldn’t protect a murderer—’” who by the way is her brother and she just wants to make sure. “‘So whoever you are, whatever you are, you can go straight to hell. Because you aren’t the Riley Greenway I wanted to bring back.’ And then I leave her crying in front of the house she’s not welcome in any more, the gash in her forehead spreading wider and wider the farther away I get.”
GIN JENNY: It’s brutal.
WHISKEY JENNY: Dude, you can’t do that. You just can’t do that.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, no, it’s terrible.
WHISKEY JENNY: So let’s talk about Xander. Did you see that coming? Because I did not.
GIN JENNY: I pegged him as the murderer immediately.
WHISKEY JENNY: I did not. Did not at all.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I did.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, good for you. Congratulations.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t mean that sarcastically. I mean actually congratulations, you did it.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, no, I don’t really guess endings, partly because I’m not that smart, and partly because I read the end so I never really have a chance to think about things. I’m just like, oh, I wonder who the murderer is, and then I go and check. Which in fact happened. I was like, oh, I bet he’s the murderer, and then I flipped to the end, and he was indeed the murderer.
WHISKEY JENNY: Super the murderer.
GIN JENNY: He’s super was. For a weird reason. I wasn’t totally sure about his motive. But regardless, I will never ever stop being traumatized by the fact that Mila casts a spell to make the murderer rot, and he starts growing mushrooms, mushy white mushrooms all over his body.
WHISKEY JENNY: Everywhere.
GIN JENNY: And at the end she talks about how he has mushy white mushrooms instead of tonsils. And I’m telling you that because I don’t want to be alone with it. I have to live my life now with that image in my mind.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yep. Everywhere. Everywhere!
GIN JENNY: Ew, tonsils. In his mouth! Bleh!
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, god.
GIN JENNY: It was such an effectively gruesome image.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it was very gruesome, and a pretty dark ending, because he ends up trying to murder them all, and then they have to murder him. And I really like a protective older brother character, and I was very sad to see it twisted into something so horrifying this time. It was not my favorite. [LAUGHTER] And I just did not see it coming. I mean, I guess once the mushroom thing started happening [LAUGHTER] the writing was on the wall.
GIN JENNY: Sure. [LAUGHTER] It was so gross. It was so, so gross.
WHISKEY JENNY: Golly, it was. But then have that happy, fun yay we’re dying tomorrow party. Which was actually really sweet. I loved the party at the end.
GIN JENNY: The undead girl gang was the best part of this book, Undead Girl Gang.
WHISKEY JENNY: For sure. Yeah, their last party was very sweet. I like the activities that they chose to do. I thought that was really fun.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I did too. I have one final thing. So a content note for talking about suicide now. I guess this is probably really predictable, but I felt like the way the book talked about suicide was pretty irresponsible. I know, you’re shocked that I would have that opinion about something.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: In what way? Can you say on?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, so none of the adults in the book respond in a helpful way to what in their mind is a rash of teen suicides. And I get that in part the book is satirizing people who respond badly to unexpected death. But it felt really irresponsible to me in a YA book not to have a voice of reason who’s actually addressing the reality of teen suicide. It’s almost not even treated as a real problem.
And especially—this is what I really, really hated—there’s a part where Mila is talking to her school counselor, who later we’re supposed to view as a voice of reason, even though her school counselor was one of the shotgun people. But I don’t think we’re meant to think Dr. Miller is a terrible person, right?
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t think we are either, which was surprising, because she’s a shotgun person.
GIN JENNY: Shotgun! [LAUGHTER] So Mila says, “What makes more sense, three unrelated suicides, or three connected murders?” And the book doesn’t push back on that. And it’s very infuriating to me, because it is very basic and find-outable information about suicide contagion—knowing someone who has died by suicide is a really significant risk factor for attempting suicide. So if two students die in a suicide pact, as Dayton and June are believed to have done, then the other kids at school are actually at really high risk. And Dr. Miller should have known that, and the book should have known that, and it was really messed up that they didn’t say anything about it. And I know I’m getting super serious about a goofy fun book, but I feel really strongly about this, and I was upset that the book didn’t even talk about that at all.
WHISKEY JENNY: You know, you still have a responsibility to get important things right, no matter how goofy and fun your book is.
GIN JENNY: Right.
WHISKEY JENNY: First of all. And second of all, this got plenty dark in other cases. So it’s not like it’s afraid to go there, I suppose.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, so that made it—I enjoyed the book mostly, but that made it harder for me to view it as just a fun romp. I would be reluctant to recommend it to an actual teen.
WHISKEY JENNY: True. Yeah.
GIN JENNY: Take care of yourselves, guys.
WHISKEY JENNY: Always.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, so do you want to hear about what we’re reading for next time?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, lay it on me.
GIN JENNY: So for next time we’re reading Confessions of the Fox, by Jordy Rosenberg. It is about a college professor who finds a manuscript that appears to be the memoirs of a real thief from the Georgian era in London, Jack Sheppard. And the professor’s annotating the manuscript and trying to authenticate it. And it appears from reading it that Jack Sheppard was a trans guy, as is the professor. So it’s about Jack Sheppard and how he comes to his life of crime, and his rivalry with a thief taker and criminal gang leader called Jonathan Wild. And then in the footnotes it’s also a little bit about the professor’s life and his job woes and the run ins he has with an increasingly capitalist university situation. And it just sounds really weird and fun and cool and weird. Sarah McCarry, who is another author I like, wrote a really good review of it on Tor.com and said she just really loved it, so I’m super excited about it.
WHISKEY JENNY: It sounds really cool. I love some fun footnotes. I love a double structure like this.
GIN JENNY: Yes! Me too, me too.
WHISKEY JENNY: So it should be fun.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, excellent. I’m really looking forward to it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yay!
GIN JENNY: Well, this has been the Reading the End bookcast with the Demographically Similar Jennys. You can visit the blog at readingtheend.com. You can follow me on Twitter @readingtheend. We are both on Goodreads as Whiskey Jenny and Gin Jenny. And you can email us, please do, at readingtheend@gmail.com. If you like what we do, you can become a podcast patron at Patreon.com/readingtheend. And if you’re listening to us on iTunes, please leave us a review.
And until next time, a quote from Too Much and Not the Mood, by Durga Chew-Bose. “Backyard things have never appealed to me. Weather-worn plastic chairs, flimsy, spongy cushions, benches with wrought iron roses, ivy, and grape clusters that look, however modest, haunted or trapped in time—cursed, even. Backyards for me have either been fiction or totally spooky. There are few things more unnerving than when, in the dead of night, a backyard light motion detects something but reveals nothing.”
[GLASSES CLINK]THEME SONG: You don’t judge a book by its cover. Page one’s not a much better view. And shortly you’re gonna discover the middle won’t mollify you. So whether whiskey’s your go-to or you’re like my gin-drinking friend, no matter what you are imbibing you’ll be better off in the end reading the end.