It’s Wednesday, and we’ve missed you! This week we’re nattering about historical fiction as a prelude to talking about a wonderful new historical novel, Jordy Rosenberg’s deeply strange and painstakingly researched Confessions of the Fox. Plus, we pick up the Lord of the Rings readalong with some more complaints about racial coding and some very noisy opinions about Treebeard and his greatness.
You can listen to the podcast using the embedded player below, or download the file directly to take with you on the go!
Here are the time signatures if you want to skip around.
2:21 – What we’re reading
6:31 – LOTR Reread: The Two Towers, Book 3, Chapters 1-5
22:20 – Historical fiction dos and don’ts
34:00 – Confessions of the Fox, Jordy Rosenberg
48:44 – What we’re reading next time
Here’s a list of books we mentioned!
The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. LeGuin
A Curious Beginning, Deanna Raybourne
The People in the Trees, Hanya Yanagihara
The Seagulls Woke Me, Mary Stolz
Master and Commander, Patrick O’Brian (PS here’s a tweet from the author of Check Please that is SPOT FORKING ON about Master and Commander)
Fingersmith, Sarah Waters
On Sal Mal Lane, Ru Freeman
Birds without Wings, Louis de Bernieres
The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society, Mary Ann Shaffer and Annie Barrows
The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society (streaming on Netflix)
The Underground Railroad, Colson Whitehead
Homegoing, Yaa Gyasi
The Signature of All Things, Elizabeth Gilbert
Sea of Poppies, Amitav Ghosh (first book in the Ibis Trilogy)
The Last Brother, Natacha Appanah
Jane Austen and the Unpleasantness at Scargrave Manor, Stephanie Barron
Confessions of the Fox, Jordy Rosenberg
A River of Stars, Vanessa Hua
Get at me on Twitter, email the podcast, and friend me (Gin Jenny) and Whiskey Jenny on Goodreads. If you like what we do, support us on Patreon. Or if you wish, you can find us on iTunes (and if you enjoy the podcast, give us a good rating! We appreciate it very very much).
Credits
Producer: Captain Hammer
Photo credit: The Illustrious Annalee
Theme song by: Jessie Barbour
Transcripts by: Sharon of Library Hungry
Transcript is available under the jump!
THEME SONG: You don’t judge a book by its cover. Page one’s not a much better view. And shortly you’re gonna discover the middle won’t mollify you. So whether whiskey’s your go-to or you’re like my gin-drinking friend, no matter what you are imbibing, you’ll be better off in the end reading the end.
GIN JENNY: Welcome to the Reading the End podcast with the demographically similar Jennys. I’m Gin Jenny.
WHISKEY JENNY: And I’m Whiskey Jenny.
GIN JENNY: And we’re back! At last! To talk to you about books and literary happenings. I missed you so much.
WHISKEY JENNY: I missed you, too.
GIN JENNY: We’ve been doing summer things, which sounds fun, but it’s actually been kind of hectic.
WHISKEY JENNY: Lot of moving.
GIN JENNY: But we’re back now, and we’re going to talk about what we’re reading. We are going to begin the Two Towers section of our Lord of the Rings read-along. We’re going to chat a bit about what makes historical fiction work for us. And we’re going to review a work of historical fiction, Jordy Rosenberg’s new novel Confessions of the Fox.
But before we get into all that, Whiskey Jenny, I have a question that you are not expecting.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh no! What’s that? I haven’t prepared at all.
GIN JENNY: I know. It’s on the spot. It has to be or else it’s no good. How would you spell bogeyman?
WHISKEY JENNY: B-O-G-E-Y-M-A-N?
GIN JENNY: Right? OK, me too. Thank you. I was reading a book that spelled it B-O-O-G-E-Y space M-A-N, and I just thought that was all askew.
WHISKEY JENNY: Whoa.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: I mean, that’s not even my second choice. My second choice is B-O-O-G-Y-M-A-N.
GIN JENNY: Oh, OK. All right, yeah, I would accept that.
WHISKEY JENNY: Just straight phonetically, you know?
GIN JENNY: I’m trying to think. I think my second choice would be B-O-O-G-I-E-M-A-N.
WHISKEY JENNY: G-I-E?! [LAUGHTER] What kind of madness is this?
GIN JENNY: I didn’t expect you to be funny right after I had spelled a word so I took a sip of water, and now there’s water all over me.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Oh no.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I think that’s how I would— I think so. That’s my second choice.
WHISKEY JENNY: Wow. I-E. I did not see that coming. [LAUGHTER] But yeah, no, it’s definitely always one word. I don’t know what that person is thinking.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, me either. It was really weird. Anyway, what are you reading?
WHISKEY JENNY: I am reading a couple of things. I am reading The Left Hand of Darkness.
GIN JENNY: Oh! How is it?
WHISKEY JENNY: Um— [LAUGHTER] I feel like I’m supposed to like it, because everyone else does. But I’m not super into it so far, I’ll be honest. For a couple of reasons.
GIN JENNY: Oh, OK, interesting.
WHISKEY JENNY: Shall I tell you what they are?
GIN JENNY: Yes, please.
WHISKEY JENNY: Number one, it’s really like, oh, and then in the ninth year of a bunch of letters I’ve never seen before, on the planet of a bunch of letters I’ve never seen before. And it’s really into the sci-fi background knowledge, I guess. The world-building bit is really hard for me to get into. So that’s been tough.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: And I haven’t finished it, obviously. But my understanding is it’s about a non-Earth people who can choose their gender at will.
GIN JENNY: OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: But—I don’t know. That means the narrator then assigns certain characteristics as being like, oh well, that’s their feminine side coming through, and that’s their masculine side coming through. And I really don’t like that.
GIN JENNY: Yeah!
WHISKEY JENNY: It was like, someone was sly and emotional and they’re like, they’re obviously very feminine sometimes. And I was I thinking whoa! Whoa! [LAUGHTER] I thought this book was going to be not quite so prescriptive in that way.
GIN JENNY: Interesting.
WHISKEY JENNY: So that’s been bit of a shock. But maybe that narrator learns a lesson? I don’t know. [LAUGHTER] So yeah, I feel really bad because I know people love it, and it’s in the hall of fame.
GIN JENNY: Definitely. I’ve never read it.
WHISKEY JENNY: But not my favorite so far.
GIN JENNY: All right.
WHISKEY JENNY: But then I’m also reading the first of the Veronica Speedwell books. I think it’s called A Curious Beginning, is the first one, by Deanna Raybourn.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, Friend of the Podcast Ashley recommended those books to both of us, I think.
WHISKEY JENNY: I am super enjoying them.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I read the first one. Yeah, it was fun.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, so much fun. Such a delight. I can’t wait to finish it and read more. I’m so excited that it’s a whole series.
GIN JENNY: Cool.
WHISKEY JENNY: What are you reading?
GIN JENNY: I’m doing some rereading. I’m very lackadaisically rereading The People in the Trees, by Hanya Yanagihara.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, yeah.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, just dipping in and out before I go to bed at night. It’s still really good. I know I got very cranky about A Little Life, which was her sophomore novel.
WHISKEY JENNY: Ooh. Sophomore.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. You like that? [LAUGHTER]
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I did. I did. Sorry. [LAUGHTER] I’m sorry to derail this.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: But so far I’m still really enjoying The People in the Trees, which I’m glad about. I was afraid that having read A Little Life and felt so frustrated with it, that I would not be able to enjoy The People in the Trees. But no, I totally still do.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yay.
GIN JENNY: And I’m also rereading The Seagulls Woke Me, by Mary Stolz, which is this book from the 1950s that I really love. It’s very ‘50s-y. It’s about a teenager called Jean who doesn’t really fit in at school. She has a hard time making friends. The boys at school don’t like her. She goes to a dance and she wears a dress that’s taupe and doesn’t look good on her, and it’s really horrible.
And then she goes to spend the summer on an island where her aunt and uncle have a hotel. And she spends the summer on this island with the other teenagers who are waiters and stuff at the hotel. It’s a coming of age story that just I think speaks really beautifully about figuring out who you are and how to co-exist with other people. And I think it’s just very insightful about humans and relationships.
WHISKEY JENNY: Aw. Sounds lovely.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. So this is a character description that I read right before I came to record this podcast. And I just thought it was typical of what I like about this book.
“Barney had a way of spoiling things, a way of making Baird’s games seem suddenly pointless, his toys silly. A manner, later on, of gently disparaging the girls that Baird liked, so that against his will Baird began to lose interest in them. Barney had never gone to college and made it seem somehow unimaginative to do so. He likes to take the pleasure out of things, Baird thought. Other people’s things.”
Which, especially when I was an older teenager and in my early 20s, I feel like I met a thousand iterations of that guy.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: So I just thought it was a really good description. And there’s a lot of small character moments like that that I think are really good.
WHISKEY JENNY: What was it called again?
GIN JENNY: It’s The Seagulls Woke Me, by Mary Stolz. And it was published in 1951, so there’s definitely some stuff where you’re like, I mean, gender roles don’t have to be that way.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: You don’t have to do it that way.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: But I still enjoy it, because there’s just a lot of good like descriptions and insights like that.
WHISKEY JENNY: Great. Shall we move on to the beginning of The Two Towers?
GIN JENNY: Oh my gosh. I’m so excited.
WHISKEY JENNY: Da da dah!
GIN JENNY: Dah da-dun da dah! So we read the first five chapters of The Two Towers.
WHISKEY JENNY: And hoo boy, what chapters they were.
GIN JENNY: Oh my goodness. I did not cope at all well with Boromir’s death, which is how this book opens.
WHISKEY JENNY: Just right off the bat.
GIN JENNY: Yeah!
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Just immediately. It’s a very rude awakening! [LAUGHTER]
GIN JENNY: Yeah. And in the movie, if you recall, we see Boromir get shot by the orcs. And so when I was reading, Aragorn just comes upon Boromir in the woods, leaned up against a tree all shot full of arrows. And I was like, OK, it’s not that bad. It was really heartbreaking in the movie, but this is OK.
But then Aragorn promises Boromir that Minas Tirith will not fall. And Boromir smiles and does not speak again.
WHISKEY JENNY: [WHIMPER]
GIN JENNY: I’m getting choked up even saying it. And then Aragorn just sits there and cries. It’s really sad.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s really sad, yeah. I mean, it is still really sad. I still kind of wish—I don’t know, I’m really into the choice the movie made of putting the death on screen, though.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I mean, and it is on screen here. But you don’t see him actually do the fight.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean the fight, I guess.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, because it redeems him, and he has the very heroic moment where he’s doing everything to protect Merry and Pippin.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah! I get why it’s hard in the book, because we’re suddenly very much in Legolas and Aragorn and Gimli’s perspective for a while. And if we saw what happened to everyone else, it wouldn’t make their racking their brains to be like, oh god, what will we do, what should we do, quite as effective. But you know, you get tradeoffs. But I am a little bit sad that we didn’t get to see him have that really heroic fight.
GIN JENNY: I am too. I did think, though, that it was really sweet that Aragorn doesn’t tell Legolas and Gimli that Boromir tried to attack Frodo. That was really sweet.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Oh, actually, wait. I’m so sorry, I have a question before that.
GIN JENNY: Oh, yeah. OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: Does your copy have the little summary of what happened in book one?
GIN JENNY: Oh my god! I can’t believe I didn’t write my note down. Yes, there was a “previously on.”
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: There’s a “previously on!” It was amazing!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: I don’t know how I didn’t remember this, but it was so charming!
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s so cute. I also—I think it tells us something that we did not find out in the previous book, or something that I did not pick up on in the previous book. Which is, it tells us that some of the orcs that have taken Merry and Pippin are Saruman’s orcs. Or he’s involved in that somehow. And I don’t feel like we knew that from the first book. I mean, I knew that because I’ve read them before. But I felt like it was new information this time.
GIN JENNY: I can’t really separate it out, because I knew it from reading it before and from watching the movies, because they talk about it in the movies. So I don’t—huh. I don’t remember.
WHISKEY JENNY: I was just like, I don’t feel like you covered that in the last one. [LAUGHTER] That feels like a spoiler! [LAUGHTER] But maybe it did. Maybe I just missed.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, maybe so.
WHISKEY JENNY: Maybe it’s like they have the white hand on their shields. Obviously that means it’s Saruman.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, no, I don’t remember. But there is quite a bit of bickering among the different troops of orcs and Uruk-hai.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: One thing I did notice in this section that I guess I’ll just get out of the way real quick. The racial coding in this section is quite serious.
WHISKEY JENNY: Mm.
GIN JENNY: The goblins are described as “swart and slant-eyed,” I unfortunately quote. And the Rohirrim, who are the men from Rohan, are described as “flaxen pale.” And the orcs call the Rohirrim Whiteskins. So it’s not the best. It’s really uncomfortable, especially—
WHISKEY JENNY: It continues.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. It’s not good.
WHISKEY JENNY: But I did enjoy, in that first chapter, rightfully so there’s a lot of dithering about what they should do next. And it was such a relief when they finally start doing something. And Aragorn and Gimli and Legolas pick their route, and they go after Merry and Pippin. And they’ve been deciding and deciding and deciding and it’s all this build up, and finally they get to go be competent in something. And it was really fun. It’s like, yay! Let’s go, let’s go, let’s go!
GIN JENNY: It is really fun. And it’s especially fun—tell me if I’m skipping over something you want to cover—but it’s especially fun for me when they run into the men from Rohan, because then we get to see them talking with people who don’t really know about their quest. And they’re just like, here’s what we’re doing. We’re chasing our friends who are these hobbits. And I don’t know, it was just neat to see another set of people who are fighting darkness, but in a completely different way, and not connected to our heroes.
WHISKEY JENNY: It was really interesting. And I don’t know if it’s now or later, but I feel like Aragorn makes a little speech that’s basically, you can’t be neutral against the evil that is Sauron.
GIN JENNY: Yes!
WHISKEY JENNY: You either have to fight him directly or you’re with him. There’s no standing aside and watching. I thought that was a really helpful speech right now, and also really well said.
GIN JENNY: Yes, I agree. Actually I wrote on the quote—Éomer is the leader of the Rohirrim, who are these men from Rohan who ride horses and are “flaxen pale.” And, um—
WHISKEY JENNY: Sorry, just, they’re super into their horses.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, we’ll come back to that!
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: OK, good.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: But anyway, Éomer is saying that Aragorn is being really doomy and depressing and that Theoden, Éomer’s boss, the King of Rohan, doesn’t necessarily want to get involved in all this. And this is what Aragorn says. It’s so topical.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it’s great.
GIN JENNY: “I bring the doom of choice. You may say this to Theoden. Open war lies before him, with Sauron or against him. None may live now as they have lived, and few shall keep what they call their own.”
WHISKEY JENNY: Ooh.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, it’s really good.
WHISKEY JENNY: Really, really good. I do have one thing I want a back up to.
GIN JENNY: Oh, OK. Oh boy.
WHISKEY JENNY: I feel like there’s a moment where they’re following the captured Merry and Pippin, and Aragorn is like, OK, we really have to hurry. This is super life or death, let’s go go go go go. Really quick, though, I’m going to declaim a poem about Gondor. [LAUGHTER] Then we can go. [LAUGHTER] It’s not for Boromir. It’s separate from eulogizing Boromir, which they’ve already done in a beautiful way. They go a little bit more, and then he’s like, hang on real quick, let me just do this poem, [LAUGHTER] then we can keep going [LAUGHTER] following our kidnapped friends. Do we have to do the poem right now, Aragorn?
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Whiskey Jenny, if you’re kidnapped, I promise I will walk and sing. I won’t just pause.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Or yeah! Can we do both at the same time?
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: No, I agree. Overall, I think we’ve touched on this before, but I do think the poems and songs kind of break up the book sometimes.
WHISKEY JENNY: They do. They definitely do. Especially when it’s someone—like, they’ve just said this is super life and death, haste matters, and we have to catch up to these people who are going really fast. However, we can take the time for poetry. We’re not heathens.
[LAUGHTER]The other thing I want to talk about while we’re talking about the villain of the book, Sauron, is I was thinking about how well-done both the structure is, that you have sort of mini boss fights all the way through.
GIN JENNY: Yes. That’s a great point.
WHISKEY JENNY: But I also think that’s really interesting from a real world perspective, of, like, evil will come at you from all corners and in all different guises. Saruman, man. It’s like, they did not need that right then, you know?
GIN JENNY: They really did not.
WHISKEY JENNY: God, he’s the worst.
GIN JENNY: Well, also another related thing that I think is good is that, in addition to the villains always getting in their way, a lot of times the other heroes get in their way.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, definitely. Yeah.
GIN JENNY: Because they run into the Rohirrim and they’re like, OK we’ve got to go go go. And ultimately the Rohirrim help them and give them horses.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure. It takes them a while.
GIN JENNY: It takes them a while. They have to stand and talk to them. They have this whole argument about whether they can be neutral in the struggle. There’s just a lot. There’s a lot there.
WHISKEY JENNY: And Éomer says that he really has to go out on a limb. And he’s like, hey, if you don’t come back, they’re going to kill me. So please, guys, come back. [LAUGHTER]
GIN JENNY: Yeah, he makes them promise that when they find their friends, they’ll come back to Rohan.
WHISKEY JENNY: Is this also the part where we hear about Sauron stealing horses from the Rohirrim?
GIN JENNY: Oh, does he?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: Oh, I forgot about this. Say on.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, I really, really liked it. Because the Rohirrim can’t decide if they want to get in the fight, but if they do, it would be because Sauron keeps stealing their horses. [LAUGHTER] He only steals the black ones!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Oh yeah, I do remember.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: That’s such a villain— [LAUGHTER] I’m so sorry. It cracks me up. Like, he really commits to his theme, you know? [LAUGHTER] He’s got a vision. Only black horses. [LAUGHTER]
GIN JENNY: I’m just picturing someone bringing back a brindled horse, and Sauron’s like, no! Get out of here!
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Absolutely not! That totally clashes with what I’ve got going on here.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: No, actually hilariously, Whiskey Jenny, I want to talk about a different horse stealing issue.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, yeah. Please go on.
GIN JENNY: OK, my favorite, favorite thing about the encounter with the Rohirrim is we find out from Éomer that Gandalf straight up stole a horse from Theoden.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, yes. Super stole Theoden’s best horse.
GIN JENNY: Fanciest horse. He went to Rohan. He tried to talk Theoden into doing what he wanted, and Theoden said no. So Gandalf just walked into his stables and stole his fanciest horse. [LAUGHTER] And the best part is, the horse returned to Rohan since then, because Gandalf was doing the fellowship thing, but now he will let anyone ride it. And I’m sure that is Gandalf’s fault. I’m sure he was like, oh, you can go back, but just be the worst.
WHISKEY JENNY: I also feel like I really want to pick back up my copy of Fellowship. Because Gandalf talks about Shadowfax previously in Fellowship. He has him at the beginning of Fellowship, and then they had to lose all the horses before the mines, I think. Right?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t think the way he tells it he stole the horse. [LAUGHTER] I would just be very interested to go back and compare Gandalf’s telling of how he obtained Shadowfax. [LAUGHTER] Maybe we’ll cover that on next podcast. Once I find it.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, right. We’ll come back to it.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: All right, man, they really have a horse thief problem.
GIN JENNY: They really do. I guess probably—I mean, it makes sense, because they’re very fancy horses.
WHISKEY JENNY: Apparently.
GIN JENNY: All right, are we ready to move on to Pippin and Merry?
WHISKEY JENNY: I’m so ready.
GIN JENNY: Oh my gosh, they are so brave and clever!
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, I love them.
GIN JENNY: They’re all kidnapped. Pippin figures out from the orcs—he’s eavesdropping on the orcs, and he figures out that they want the one ring. And he uses that to get himself and Merry away from the main group so that they can effect an escape. It’s pretty clever and resourceful.
WHISKEY JENNY: And he’s already—isn’t it Pippin who’s already on purpose lost his little brooch?
GIN JENNY: That’s right! Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: So that if anyone is following them, they know for sure that they’re there and they’re alive.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, he leaves it for trackers to find.
GIN JENNY: And—oh, before Pippin and Merry escape, I do have to mention that one of the Sauron orcs says that the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths, are the “apple of the Great Eye.” And I was like, that’s pretty good material, Sauron orcs. [LAUGHTER] I bet that killed at the water cooler. [LAUGHTER]
Anyway, they get away from the orcs.
WHISKEY JENNY: They do.
GIN JENNY: And who do they meet?
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh my god, they meet Ents! [LAUGHTER] Ents! Ents Ents Ents!
GIN JENNY: Oh my god.
WHISKEY JENNY: I love the Ents.
GIN JENNY: I did not correctly remember how great Treebeard is.
WHISKEY JENNY: I did not, either. I didn’t know it happened this soon. Really, this whole section I did remember how awesome it was. I know you said it was your favorite, but I don’t remember Two Towers being my favorite. But so far, this was a really strong section. And Treebeard is just awesome in it.
GIN JENNY: He’s so good. And his opening line is gold. Pippin and Merry are running through Fangorn forest. Something nice happens, and Pippin says, “I almost feel that I like this place.” And then Treebeard says, “I almost feel that I dislike you both, but let us not be hasty.” [LAUGHTER] It’s so good!
WHISKEY JENNY: My god, I love the Ents so much.
GIN JENNY: Oh, for listeners, I guess, who don’t know, Ents are really big walking, talking trees.
WHISKEY JENNY: They’re the coolest.
GIN JENNY: They’re great. They’re so great.
WHISKEY JENNY: They have Entmoots when they need to meet and think about and talk about stuff. And they last for days and days, because they don’t make any hasty decisions. And they call them Entmoots, which is adorable.
GIN JENNY: It’s so cute. And I love how they— Oh, sorry, go ahead.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, you go ahead.
GIN JENNY: I’m sorry, I’m just so excited about Treebeard.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I know, I love the Ents! Let’s list everything about the Ents that we like. One of the things that I really like about the Ents is their language, the way that they name things. Everything has a really long name that sort of tells its story. And I just think it’s fascinating within a book to have these characters to whom narrative is so important.
GIN JENNY: Ooh, yeah. That’s a great point.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s so cool.
GIN JENNY: It is cool. And he also has a lot of good turns of phrase. He’s wise. Treebeard has been around for—
WHISKEY JENNY: He’s super wise, yeah.
GIN JENNY: But Merry and Pippin are able to talk him into helping them out. So he’s into it. He just needs to hold an Entmoot.
WHISKEY JENNY: Uh huh. An Entmoot.
GIN JENNY: Did you take note of the first order of business?
WHISKEY JENNY: Um—
GIN JENNY: The first thing on the agenda, the official agenda, is that they have a list of creatures in Middle Earth, and the list—
WHISKEY JENNY: Uh huh? Oh, that’s right. That’s right.
GIN JENNY: —don’t contain hobbits. [LAUGHTER] The first item on their agenda is like, OK, we need to revise our lists, because they’re incomplete. We’ve now met hobbits. So for sure we’re going to add them to our list. Now, on to the subject of possibly fighting evil.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Motion passes. Item number two. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. So what’s the ultimate outcome?
GIN JENNY: That they agree to help.
WHISKEY JENNY: They’re really willing to give up their lives to fight stupid, stupid Saruman. I forget—I think Treebeard is talking about how elves are super interested in everyone else.
GIN JENNY: Are they?
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Excuse me, Treebeard. You and I have gotten along great so far, but I would just like to quibble with you on this one point. Elves don’t give a crap about anyone but themselves.
GIN JENNY: They sure don’t.
WHISKEY JENNY: I believe this has been made clear. They said it! They were like, eh, we don’t really care about humans.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, they’re all like, well we’re going to go into the West anyway, so good luck!
WHISKEY JENNY: Also there’s one footnote that’s like, see Appendix F in final volume. And I was like, I’m not— [LAUGHTER] I’m not going to go see a footnote in a different volume! Come on. [LAUGHTER] That’s asking way too much of me, JRR. Meanwhile.
GIN JENNY: Speaking of people who needlessly dick around with people for no reason.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yes.
GIN JENNY: Legolas and Gimli and Aragorn are in Fangorn Forest, having tracked Pippin and Merry successfully. And Gandalf shows up in the forest. And instead of just being cool and taking off his hat and being like, it’s me, Gandalf, I’m not dead, he messes around with them and is like, oh, I’m an old man, whatever. Maybe I’m Saruman, you don’t know. Why? The world is so hard already, Gandalf.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t know why. He knows it’s them!
GIN JENNY: He can see there’s only them three, and therefore something must have happened to the others, probably nothing good. It’s really uncool.
WHISKEY JENNY: He never really explains himself, either. I will say, I was pretty excited for the return of Gandalf, though. It’s still a pretty fun, cool reveal.
GIN JENNY: Yes, it definitely is. And Gandalf is still a really great character. And he gives them a lot of really good insights into Sauron and what he wants and what he’s going to do next. And I was really into that.
WHISKEY JENNY: If I had one of those DJ air horns, brr brr-brr brr brr!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Also can we talk about what happens at the very end of this section.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, what happens?
GIN JENNY: Gandalf steals Theoden’s fanciest horse a second time! [LAUGHTER]
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh! Again!
GIN JENNY: He steals the horse twice! [LAUGHTER] I just had no recollection of this. [LAUGHTER] Gandalf will not stop stealing Theoden’s best horse.
WHISKEY JENNY: Naw. Nope. It’s his horse now.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Oh, it’s so good. And it also sheds some light on, I recall Theoden not being very happy to see him when he shows up in Rohan, and this kind of explains why.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, but I also recall Theoden being, you know.
GIN JENNY: Sure, there’s some stuff going on with Theoden.
WHISKEY JENNY: Not great.
GIN JENNY: Which I think we’ll get into all of that next time, because next time we’re reading chapters 6 through 11 of book three, the first book in Two Towers.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s correct. Next time we get into it. Does Saruman fall next time? I really hope so.
GIN JENNY: I really hope so. I don’t remember. God, I really hope so. He’s such a jerk. Well, do you want to talk about historical fiction?
WHISKEY JENNY: I do.
GIN JENNY: What makes it good? Do you read much historical fiction? I feel like you read more than me.
WHISKEY JENNY: Um, I enjoy it. I read some. A moderate amount. I don’t feel like I need a historical fiction primer. I feel like I have read some.
GIN JENNY: I wonder what a historical fiction primer would even look like. Because there’s so many eras you could pull from.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, not that many, though, because, you know all the books really like—
GIN JENNY: The Tudors.
WHISKEY JENNY: The Tudors and the world wars.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, they sure do. I proposed this topic, but I really don’t read that much historical fiction. And I think I have the idea in my head I don’t like it, although there are works of historical fiction that I like a lot. But I think it’s because I don’t like long descriptions. I can’t picture stuff. And very often, historical fiction writers have done a lot of research—good for them—and they want to create a world, but—
WHISKEY JENNY: [SIGH] Yeah, but.
GIN JENNY: It’s kind of wasted on me.
WHISKEY JENNY: I really dislike—this is one of the things in my do not do category. The research has to be tied in and integral to the story. You can’t just be like, and then also this is what the candlesticks look like.
GIN JENNY: Right.
WHISKEY JENNY: Just because this is a fact that I know. And they often do, and it’s like, all right, man. We know that you researched it. You don’t have to prove it. And I’m not impressed, so please stop boring me.
GIN JENNY: I often am impressed, but it also makes for a challenging reading experience. So I’m not impressed enough that I am able to still enjoy it.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s definitely a don’t for me as well.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. Finding a balance is so important. Master and Commander, I actually put, “Master and Commander is too much.”
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Too much boat college.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: What does work for me? So the big one is—this is obviously not exclusive to historical fiction, but I think because of the amount of research that authors have to do, it can sometimes get lost because they’re so focused on creating the world successfully. So having an excellent plot and characters that I really can care about is maybe even more important in historical fiction than other times.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I totally agree. I didn’t mention characters, but I have one here that the plot, even more than present day, has to be engaging.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: I can handle less happening in a present day book.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I think me too. But I was thinking of Fingersmith as the perfect example. Really the perfect example of historical fiction across the board.
WHISKEY JENNY: Of books?
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah. Books. [LAUGHTER] It’s so good. It’s super awesome and romantic and exciting, and there’s a crazy twist in the middle that blew my mind. And then that twist finishes, and then there’s another twist! It’s so good.
WHISKEY JENNY: Did you see that movie ever?
GIN JENNY: Yes, they made a movie of it, I think with the BBC, I think, made a movie of it? Or ITV, or one of those.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, I have not seen that. Did you see the Korean adaptation movie of it?
GIN JENNY: No, have you?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. It was so good.
GIN JENNY: What’s it called again? The Handmaiden or something?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. The Handmaiden. So good.
GIN JENNY: Anyway, yeah. So that was a plot example. Also I read a book called On Sal Mal Lane, by Ru Freeman, which is set on a street in Sri Lanka just prior to and then during the Sri Lankan civil war. And I don’t want to say that not a lot happens, because obviously war breaks out. But I would say the characters are more central than the plot to the book. But she just did such a good job of making all the adults and all the kids really so lovely and dear, and they all had these relationships to each other. And I just wanted to see what would happen. I just wanted them all to be OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: Aw. That sounds lovely.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. For a book partly about civil war, it was just very domestic and small scale, and oh, gosh, it was really—I should reread that.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I like how you talked yourself into that.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: So what are some other do’s for you?
WHISKEY JENNY: A do for me is—the sweet spot for me is historical fiction that focuses on everyday people’s lives, but during extraordinary events.
GIN JENNY: Really? So you don’t like royalty books.
WHISKEY JENNY: I mean, I love a present day royalty romance, especially if they’re hidden royalty and the object of their affection doesn’t realize it. But in historical fiction, I don’t really care about the person in power who’s already in the history books. I don’t want the behind the scenes of them. And there’s obviously exceptions. I still want to read Wolf Hall and things like that.
GIN JENNY: I was just about to ask about Wolf Hall.
WHISKEY JENNY: I haven’t read it. But I do want to, but that’s the exception. Normally that kind of—like Lincoln in the Bardo everyone loves, but I’ve been like, eh.
GIN JENNY: Interesting. Interesting.
WHISKEY JENNY: But if it’s regular everyday people in their normal, quotidian lives that suddenly get upended and have to live through things, I’m way more into that.
GIN JENNY: Do you have an example of a book like that?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. I feel like Birds Without Wings, by Louis de Berniere is really good at that. And then our favorite Guernsey Literary Potato—ahem, Peel? Society? [LAUGHTER] Something? Pie? Did I say Pie?
GIN JENNY: I think so.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. That book. The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: You know, that’s just regular people on the island of Guernsey, and stuff happens.
GIN JENNY: And it’s great.
WHISKEY JENNY: And that’s my favorite thing to read about.
GIN JENNY: Just really, really fast sidebar. Have you watched the movie of it yet?
WHISKEY JENNY: No, but someone texted me and was like, I have a movie recommendation, and it was that. And I didn’t even realize it was a movie. And I’m really excited.
GIN JENNY: Was it me?
WHISKEY JENNY: No.
GIN JENNY: Because I watched it with my sister, and I was like, oh man, Whiskey Jenny would be into this.
WHISKEY JENNY: I’m pretty excited. I loved the book. Did they cast it well?
GIN JENNY: Yes. I was going to say, the only thing is I don’t necessarily know that Lily James or Collins is the best Juliet, who’s the main character.
WHISKEY JENNY: What? Who’s the main character?
GIN JENNY: So it’s Lily—I think—
WHISKEY JENNY: The blonde one or the brunette one?
GIN JENNY: Mm-hm.
WHISKEY JENNY: What color is her hair?
GIN JENNY: The one that was in Cinderella. Well, she has a wig on. It’s the ‘40s.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK. The one who was in Cinderella. OK, that’s Lily James.
GIN JENNY: OK. Lily James. Lily James is so pretty and delightful, but I think she’s a little too wishy-washy for Juliet. That was my only note. I just want to prepare you going in. Also Matthew Goode plays her publisher, Sidney.
WHISKEY JENNY: What!
GIN JENNY: Yes, I know. And I mean, every scene he’s in is so delightful. And what I really, really want is a sequel where he and Juliet and the sexy farmer and the crazy fortune teller all go on a book tour together. That’s what I want.
WHISKEY JENNY: Aw, that sounds delightful. I would watch that.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, right? I would watch it so many times. And her relationship with Sidney is so lovely.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yay!
GIN JENNY: Gosh, it’s good. I can’t wait to hear what you think of it.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s on Netflix, right?
GIN JENNY: Yeah. Anyway, sorry, returning to historical fiction. I’m sorry to have sidebarred on Guernsey, but it was just so charming.
WHISKEY JENNY: I brought it up. It’s my fault.
GIN JENNY: So ordinary people?
WHISKEY JENNY: Ordinary people.
GIN JENNY: Very interesting.
WHISKEY JENNY: Ideally in extraordinary events. You know how I love an ordinary, everyday family life book in present day? And that’s not so much my jam in historical fiction. It would rather be normal everyday people, but crazy stuff happening.
GIN JENNY: Did you like The Underground Railroad?
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, I loved it, yeah. Well, it also breaks my other rule, which is—and I feel like I laughed at you when you first said this, but you’re right, American history is just really boring.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Oh my god! I didn’t actually put this in my—
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t care about this.
GIN JENNY: Oh, it is so boring.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s not boring. A lot of shit happened that we should cover. But I don’t know, I’m not interested in it.
GIN JENNY: The Underground Railroad was an extreme outlier for me.
WHISKEY JENNY: Or Homegoing was amazing
GIN JENNY: Yup that’s the other thing I would say in general if the book concerns historical either events or themes that I am personally interested in that’s obviously a big draw.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, yeah, obviously.
GIN JENNY: So racism in America I’m interested in, more than, I don’t know, the Vanderbilts.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, totally.
GIN JENNY: Or like I read The Signature of All Things, by Elizabeth Gilbert, which is about a Victorian botanist. And I just don’t care enough about plants, it turns out.
WHISKEY JENNY: Aw, poor plants.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, sorry plants.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Can I tell you the structure that I don’t need any more?
GIN JENNY: Oh, I think I know what it is, and it’s going to make me sad, but go ahead.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, no. What do you—guess.
GIN JENNY: OK. Well, OK, but if I’m wrong I’ll be embarrassed. That’s OK. I’ll just edit it out.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: I think it’s going to be where someone, as an example, a woman comes to stay at a stately house, and it’s her narration and then alternating with the story of the people who used to live in the stately house that potentially she’s learning about in her present day.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, close.
GIN JENNY: OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t mind a double structure, like a dual present and past structure. I just am tired of it being hinged upon a mysterious object that someone finds.
GIN JENNY: Oh, interesting.
WHISKEY JENNY: I am no longer here for a mysterious object hunts. [LAUGHTER] Please address all messages to my voicemail. [LAUGHTER] And I will delete them like I do all my voicemails.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: No more McGuffins, says Whiskey Jenny.
WHISKEY JENNY: No more McGuffins! I can’t do it anymore! [LAUGHTER] Just tell me the story. There doesn’t have to be a key or a letter or whatever, a necklace or a locket. I don’t need a clock! Yeah, so that’s one thing.
GIN JENNY: I would also say it can be challenging to find—and we touched on this, but it can be challenging to find a good setting that I don’t hate and I’m not tired of.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure, yeah. I think I have a lot more patience with Europe and Italy than you do.
GIN JENNY: Yes, my patience is close to zero. [LAUGHTER]
WHISKEY JENNY: But on the flip side, that’s where a lot of historical fiction focuses. And it is hard to find non-Eurocentric historical fiction because publishing is systematically and institutionally racist, like all other systems and institutions.
GIN JENNY: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
WHISKEY JENNY: And I should be not quite so Eurocentric, is my point, I suppose.
GIN JENNY: I do get really excited when a book has—like Amitav—I’ve talked about this series a lot, but Amitav Ghosh’s—
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, the poppies one.
GIN JENNY: Sea of Poppies. And then it’s the Ibis trilogy, so there’s three books. And it’s set in China and India and various places during the Opium War era, which is really interesting. I also just read this book—this was fascinating. I just read this book called The Last Brother, by Nathacha Appanah—I’m not sure if I’m pronouncing that right. It’s a novel, but it’s based on actual historical events, which is that this group of Jewish deportees, they were deported from England during World War II to Mauritius, and then they were kept in a camp there from 1944 until the end of the war.
WHISKEY JENNY: Huh.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, which I’d never heard of before. Obviously I’m really interested in African history. It was a really interesting piece of history, and I was really excited to find this historical fiction book that had a completely new piece of World War II that I didn’t know about.
WHISKEY JENNY: Historical fiction loves World War II, though, doesn’t it?
GIN JENNY: Oh, gosh. I mean, and no shots. Like, I enjoy World War II also.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, sure.
GIN JENNY: Just watched The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.
WHISKEY JENNY: We literally were just talking about it. I love it.
GIN JENNY: And then I have one last thing that I’m not even sure I’ve articulated really well. But having the book find a balance of historical values and my values.
WHISKEY JENNY: Hmm.
GIN JENNY: Which I think can be really, really tricky, because on one hand, obviously, morality is socially constructed, and things change over time, and na na na. On the other hand, I don’t want the characters to have really vile historical views, because I can’t have fun spending time with characters who just hate Jewish people, you know?
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure. Or like, yeah, slavery seems fine.
GIN JENNY: Yes! But on the other other hand, it does feel really weird when—well, two things feel really weird. One, it feels really weird when the protagonists have anachronistically enlightened views.
WHISKEY JENNY: I feel like Friend of the Podcast Ashley loves calling this anachronistically woke.
GIN JENNY: Oh, does she? Yeah, it’s weird. And then the opposite of that also doesn’t work, where it’s just not addressed at all. Like, I just read this mystery novel where Jane Austen solves a murder.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, that sounds great! But it wasn’t?
GIN JENNY: No, it was. It was really delightful, and it’s part of a series, so I was like, oh great, I can read more of these. But a large part of the plot hinged on some land that one character owned and where she grew up. And it was a plantation in the Caribbean.
WHISKEY JENNY: Rrrm.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. And nobody in the book is like, wow, slavery is wrong. And I just I felt really, really, really, really uncomfortable about it. And I don’t know what the solution is. Because obviously, the people in Jane Austen’s tier of society probably wouldn’t mostly have been like, oh yeah, slavery is wrong. But on the other hand, it just feels like a piece of possible historical accuracy that we just don’t need. I don’t know how to fix that.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, I mean, I think addressing it, at least. We don’t need to sweep it under.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. I don’t know what to do about it. [SIGH]
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, good thing we don’t have to solve it now.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: I don’t know how to solve it, but one book that I thought did a great job in this regard is Confessions of the Fox, by Jordy Rosenberg, which we read for this week’s podcast,
WHISKEY JENNY: We sure did.
GIN JENNY: And we want to say thank you so much to our Patreon subscribers, because y’all’s kind patronage of our podcast enabled us to buy this new book that we would not have been able to get at the library because it’s brand new and a lot of people want to read it. Rightly.
WHISKEY JENNY: I would like to say that Gin Jenny manages the podcast money, which means that she bought the ebook for me and had it sent to my Nook. So it was even more magical of an experience for me. It just showed up on my Nook and there was a little note that said, from Patreon. Or, from the Patreon patrons. And it was amazing. It just appeared there! It was so great. Thank you so much.
GIN JENNY: So real quick, the premise of Confessions of the Fox. Dr. Voth is an academic who discovers this manuscript that purports to be a 1724 autobiography of the famous thief Jack Sheppard and about his relationship with a sex worker named Bess, who in this manuscript is revealed to be of South Asian descent, which is cool. So the bulk of the book is the manuscript, and Dr. Voth annotates it in footnotes which sometimes are actually explaining slang or 18th century culture, but often are just him talking about his professional and personal life. So Whiskey Jenny, what did you think?
WHISKEY JENNY: I loved it.
GIN JENNY: Yay!
WHISKEY JENNY: I thought it was amazing.
GIN JENNY: Yay! Oh, I’m so excited. It’s such a strange book, and I wasn’t sure what either of us, frankly, would make of it.
WHISKEY JENNY: I mean, I have a couple of notes. But overall, I thought it was so ambitious and really amazingly succeeded at this insane goal that it set for itself. And I loved it, yeah.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I did, too. And also, so Jordy Rosenberg, the author, is an academic in his day job. And so there was a bibliography at the end of sources he consulted to write the book, which was great for me.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s really long. It’s really long bibliography.
GIN JENNY: It’s a really lengthy bibliography. I was really so into it. I was like, god, I wish that all historical fiction novels had a bibliography like that, because then I can find out where they learned all their stuff.
WHISKEY JENNY: So I didn’t—I realized maybe halfway through that it was kind of a retelling of The Threepenny Opera.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. Are you familiar with The Threepenny Opera? Because I was not.
WHISKEY JENNY: I am not at all. I was only looking it up recently because I was recounting how we always say that people named Jenny in books are often sex workers and they often die. And I was looking up—someone found a murder ballad sung by a person named Jenny, and I was really into it. And then I looked it up and it was like, and then that character named Jenny later dies. [LAUGHTER] And really she wasn’t a pirate, this was her fantasy of getting revenge on all the people who wronged her, and then she dies. So that’s my full extent of The Threepenny Opera story. But I guess it was sort of Baader-Meinhof, in that I noticed it come up twice in a row. But there’s also a person named Jenny in this book, and—
GIN JENNY: Guess what, guys!
WHISKEY JENNY: I did not have high hopes for her, and, spoiler alert.
GIN JENNY: She dies.
WHISKEY JENNY: She definitely dies.
GIN JENNY: She is a sex worker and then she dies, so it hits both of my Jennys in historical fiction tropes.
WHISKEY JENNY: Nailed it.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Well, I guess we can get to spoilers in a little bit. But for part of the book I was like, OK, this is enjoyable, but the author hasn’t really made that much of an effort to make the manuscript sound 18th century-ish, which was OK. But I was a little, like a scootch, more interested in Bess than Jack. Because she was all revolutionary, and Jack was kind of tootling along a little bit.
WHISKEY JENNY: I thought it made an effort. Its strongest showing was in the random capitalization of words.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Oh yeah. So good.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: And I think it sort of tried to convolute sentences some in the way that you often find. I was a little worried when Bess first came on the scene. I was concerned that she was just going to be the object of Jack’s affection. But she really turns out to be, as you said, super cool and super revolutionary, and the one with all the big ideas. And I was really into her. You’re right.
GIN JENNY: I was really into her, too.
WHISKEY JENNY: It really turned around quickly.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. I liked their relationship. I thought it was nice.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: Oh, I forgot, I guess we should probably say this. It’s fairly important to the book. So Jack is a trans guy, and so is the academic who’s annotating the manuscript. And again, I thought that was really interesting, but also played into—I’m trying to decide how to say this without being too spoilery. This was another thing where there were parts of the manuscript that I was like, I mean, this is a little—again, it felt like potentially the characters were being a little bit anachronistically woke, as Ashley would say.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh. I didn’t get that sense in this book.
GIN JENNY: OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: I got it as more a correction of the historical record, in that trans people and people of color existed during this time period in London, too, and it’s a weird construct that they don’t in fiction now.
GIN JENNY: And actually this was one of the footnotes that I liked a lot. It was one of the footnotes where Dr. Voth is actually annotating the manuscript rather than talking about his own life.
WHISKEY JENNY: Mm-hm.
GIN JENNY: But he talks about occluding whiteness, concealing people of color from the historical archives. Which is really neat. And again, especially because Jordy Rosenberg is an academic and this is his period. It was cool, because he was citing books that he probably reads for work and that are really relevant and important to his professional life, as well as this really fun novel he’s writing.
WHISKEY JENNY: Really fun novel, but also I feel like it’s really political.
GIN JENNY: Yes!
WHISKEY JENNY: And it brings up all these ideas, and summarizes all of these scholarly works that are real, I assume, and manages to get so many huge revolutionary ideas across in the midst of this really plot-heavy book.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, it was great. I think the books are definitely real, because I was looking at his bibliography, and I owned four of the books he cited at the end.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well check you out! Very nice.
GIN JENNY: I know. I felt so fancy.
WHISKEY JENNY: Can we talk about how much sex is in this book?
GIN JENNY: Oh gosh, so much.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I read this a lot on the subway, and this is—
GIN JENNY: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, there’s a lot of sex in this book.
WHISKEY JENNY: One of the more explicit books that we’ve read for podcast, I would say. And there’s a lot of very detailed description of smells, and parts, and very explicit.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, well, right. So it’s more explicit than Tristram Shandy, obviously. But that kind of frankness about bodies, I feel like it reminded me of books that I’ve read from this period and a little later.
WHISKEY JENNY: My favorite, at the beginning—I don’t know how I can say this without—I guess it’s technically a curse word.
GIN JENNY: I think it’s fine.
WHISKEY JENNY: In the footnotes at the beginning, there were like six in a row that were translated as slang terms for a woman’s vagina. But they used the word beginning with the letter P. So it’s just six footnotes in a row that are just like pussy, pussy, pussy.
GIN JENNY: Just straight in a row. [LAUGHTER] I know. I thought that was really funny. I don’t know if that makes me immature, but it made me laugh.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, I really liked it, too.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: I would say that like 30% of the footnotes, by number, were just translating slang terms for sex parts and acts.
WHISKEY JENNY: Genitals. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, yeah, there was just a lot of sex in this book. I did not expect that. I did not see that coming.
GIN JENNY: No, I didn’t either. My friend Charlotte and I are always talking on Twitter that we want a book that’s like Possession, by A.S. Byatt, but queer. So she sent me a link to this book on Goodreads before it came out and was like, oh, maybe this is the queer Possession we’ve been hoping for. So that was kind of the mindset that I took to it. Possession, [CLEARING THROAT] Possession is not that explicit, my friends. So this is not what I expected.
WHISKEY JENNY: It was always well written.
GIN JENNY: Oh, yeah, definitely.
WHISKEY JENNY: Not badly done, but it was just like, man. All right, we’re going to have sex again. All right, cool.
GIN JENNY: I was happy for Jack and Bess, because a lot of stuff happens in the book that’s really rough for both of them. So I was like, good for them for finding each other and being sexually compatible.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. I hope they enjoy it as much as possible.
GIN JENNY: Oh, bless their hearts.
WHISKEY JENNY: So the character Jack can hear commodities.
GIN JENNY: I liked that a lot.
WHISKEY JENNY: Things being bought or sold, the objects themselves talk to him, and talk about their history and their desires. And I just loved it so much. I thought that was one of the coolest aspects of the book.
GIN JENNY: There were a lot of really cool elements that were kind of just unexpected moments, that were a little bit strange compared to my expectations for a historical novel. Yeah, they were really interesting like that. It was just, it was a strange thing, and it’s never really like—the magic element kind of really stays with it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Fascinating.
GIN JENNY: And it was interesting for a thief, which is what he is.
WHISKEY JENNY: Among other things.
GIN JENNY: Among many other things.
WHISKEY JENNY: Jailbreaker general.
GIN JENNY: And based on a real historical figure. I don’t know if I mentioned that, but he is.
WHISKEY JENNY: He gets—is this a spoiler, if I talk about the surgery? He has surgery, and it was really horrifying.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, he has 18th century top surgery, which just, really.
WHISKEY JENNY: [HORRIFIED] Oh my god.
GIN JENNY: Any time I read about medical procedures from times past, it’s just awful.
WHISKEY JENNY: This was—hoo.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. It was lengthy and graphic.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, god, I’m shuddering thinking of it now.
GIN JENNY: Well, I do not then recommend that you go to the medical equipment section of the London Science Museum.
WHISKEY JENNY: Jesus Christ!
GIN JENNY: Yeah, they have a lot of medical implements from history, especially gynecological things.
WHISKEY JENNY: Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
GIN JENNY: It’s not good.
WHISKEY JENNY: Mm-mm. Nope.
GIN JENNY: Do not recommend.
WHISKEY JENNY: Nope. I’m out. I tap out.
GIN JENNY: OK, so my biggest problem was the book felt a little bit arch, both the manuscript parts and the footnote parts. And I felt, especially in the first half of the book—before a certain thing occurs—I felt a little bit like the book was insincere. So it made it a little hard for me to fully commit to the first part of the book, because I was thinking—yeah, it just felt a little insincere.
WHISKEY JENNY: Hm. Can you give an example?
GIN JENNY: Like in the footnotes, when Dr. Voth was talking about his life and his ex, and sort of being satirical about the neo-liberal university. I mean, it was funny, but it also felt—yeah, arch is the only word I can think of. It felt like he just wasn’t being sincere about his emotions. It just made Dr. Voth a challenging character for me, because I like people who are sincere.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure.
GIN JENNY: But then it turned out to be achingly sincere at the end, so the whole criticism was—so I mentioned this to say, listeners, if you’re reading this book and you feel this way in the first half of the book, I would stick with it. Because things really take a turn.
WHISKEY JENNY: They sure do. Should we get into spoilers?
GIN JENNY: So I don’t know if you exactly call it a twist, but it felt like a twist. Dr. Voth finds out that there’s this group of people, basically, that wants to expand history in ways that make it more welcoming for people who’ve historically been pushed into the margins. So Dr. Voth realizes that this manuscript has been altered over the years to make it kind of an archive of queer resistance. It wasn’t not at all the turn that I expect of the book to take. But it was very community-focused and hopeful in ways that really meant a lot to me in our present historical moment.
And there was one footnote that I really loved where he says, “My new friends do not conceive themselves as living in the year 2018. They’re living in the year We Escaped. This year has lasted them a long time.”
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: Gosh it was great. And after that I was like, oh, this is the best book ever.
WHISKEY JENNY: Aw. I love that you loved it.
GIN JENNY: I just got really emotional at the end, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: That was—not the concept of what they were doing, but this otherworldly place that he went to discover these people, was sort of the hardest things for me to follow the book to.
GIN JENNY: That makes sense, because he describes it in a fairly limited way. Like he doesn’t talk the most about what that actually looks like.
WHISKEY JENNY: But he does say, like, the library was made of spider webs. And I was like, I don’t [LAUGHTER] I don’t know what you’re talking about, and it’s really hard for me to figure out what you’re talking about. But I’m excited for the goal here of expanding history, but what do you mean when you say that it’s made of spider webs? [LAUGHTER] That’s my own literalness getting in my way, and I’m not saying that this is a downfall of the book, but I’m saying that was the hardest thing for me to follow.
GIN JENNY: Sure.
WHISKEY JENNY: But I’m so glad that you were able to go there, because I was not.
GIN JENNY: I think what I liked about it—because I also am not wild about libraries being made of spider webs, or whatever. But I read a lot of nonfiction, and the history of history is that it tends to tell stories that reflect the historian’s mindset. So when most prominent historians are white, cis, straight men, which they are, those are the stories that are in the history books.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh yeah, to the victor. Blah de blah.
GIN JENNY: Right. And you may recall me complaining about there’s no history of the empire of Mali in English.
WHISKEY JENNY: I remember.
GIN JENNY: And that would never happen for an empire of people that white, cis, straight guys thought of as their intellectual ancestors. And it hasn’t. We have tons and tons of books about Greece and Rome.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yep.
GIN JENNY: And I was not expecting this book to go to the place of saying, facts are always biased. You will always be putting a spin on them based on what you include and what you leave out. And I just love that this book addressed that.
WHISKEY JENNY: Totally. I really loved that too, yeah.
GIN JENNY: And created this idea of a new kind of archive. It was really, really cool.
WHISKEY JENNY: I think it did a good job of setting up that idea throughout. It’s not like suddenly it becomes political. It’s been—
GIN JENNY: It’s been super political all along.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, and it’s been proving that point all along.
GIN JENNY: Right, right, right. Oh, yeah, that’s a great point too.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, and it’s a very worthy point to prove.
GIN JENNY: And it also really explained the thing that I had kind of felt weird about before, which is that the manuscript doesn’t sound super 18th century-y. But it really addresses that in the end, which I was not expecting at all. I was reading it and thinking, OK, that’s just not the path this author has chosen to take. But no, it’s actually a deliberate choice, and it was all explained, and I felt like all my complaints were addressed.
WHISKEY JENNY: I feel like I’m getting old.
GIN JENNY: God, me too. [SIGH]
WHISKEY JENNY: My repeating complaint is sometimes books are just too long. And for me this book fell off a little bit right before the big ship climax.
GIN JENNY: Oh, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: And this is partly because that was a big spider web archive part.
GIN JENNY: Uh-huh. [LAUGHTER] Yes it was.
WHISKEY JENNY: But then the giant ship climax came, and I was super back in.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, we’ve said this already, but I did enjoy that in addition to making all these really interesting points, it’s also a pretty good—
WHISKEY JENNY: Really good!
GIN JENNY: I don’t want to say caper story, because that makes it sound a little more lighthearted than it is.
WHISKEY JENNY: Super—yeah. It’s just not.
GIN JENNY: But it’s this romance with Jack and Bess. They’re doing all these adventures.
WHISKEY JENNY: They’re doing thiefs.
GIN JENNY: Is there a sadder word for adventures? I don’t know.
WHISKEY JENNY: Doomed plots.
GIN JENNY: Well, I mean, yeah. They’re trying to make their way in a world that’s set up to make it very hard for them to get by.
WHISKEY JENNY: They’re also trying to change that world. They’re not just trying to make their way. Bess has all these—
GIN JENNY: Especially Bess! My girl.
WHISKEY JENNY: Bess is like, you know what, it shouldn’t be like this. This is dumb. We should do it this way. And she is always the one who sees through—I love this about her. She’s always the one explaining, like, they don’t really care about the plague. They just want to be able to police you.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. It was great.
WHISKEY JENNY: The author thanked his editor and his imprint in particular in his end notes. And I’d never heard of this imprint, and it’s super made me want to check out more things by this imprint, which is a testament to how good this book was and to what this imprint is trying to do. Which is One World. It’s One World imprint of Random House.
GIN JENNY: Yes, me too. I wasn’t familiar with their work before, but after all the stuff Jordy Rosenberg said about how great they were and how great his editor was in particular, I was definitely interested to check out more by them.
WHISKEY JENNY: The goal of the imprint on their website says, “to provide a home for authors who seek to challenge the status quo, subvert dominant narratives, and give us new language to understand our past, present, and future.”
Yeah, and also, I don’t think we mentioned this, but there were so many sentences that I highlighted in this book. It was really beautifully written, too. My three words were, it’s ambitious and political and gorgeous.
GIN JENNY: It even made me want to check out Jordy Rosenberg’s academic work. And I do not care about 18th century London, so.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I think now you might.
GIN JENNY: He wrote an academic monograph. My library doesn’t have it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Boo.
GIN JENNY: I might ILL it. I liked the book a lot. Well, what are we reading for next time?
WHISKEY JENNY: Next time we are reading A River of Stars, by Vanessa Hua. It is about a woman from China who is having an affair and gets pregnant and gets sent to America to have the baby, and then goes on a road trip with another woman from the maternity house that she was in.
GIN JENNY: Great. I love road trips.
WHISKEY JENNY: Mostly what I gathered was road trip. So I know you like road trips.
GIN JENNY: I sure do.
WHISKEY JENNY: And it sounded really interesting about motherhood, immigration, and identity, says the little Amazon summary. So I am excited to read it.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, me too. It sounds interesting.
WHISKEY JENNY: This has been the Reading the End bookcast with the demographically similar Jennys. You can visit the blog at readingtheend.com. You can follow us on Twitter @readingtheend. We’re both on Goodreads as Whiskey Jenny and Gin Jenny. You can email us, and we hope you will, at readingtheend@gmail.com. If you like what we do, you can become a podcast patron at patreon.com/readingtheend. And if you’re listening to us on iTunes, please leave us a review.
Until next time, a quote from Confessions of the Fox, by Jordy Rosenberg. “And he couldn’t bear looking at Jack like that for much longer. Holding him was better. Looking was causing a chasm to widen in his brain, hollowing the space between the real world and the wished-for one, that maybe-gone one.”
THEME SONG: You don’t judge a book by its cover. Page one’s not a much better view. And shortly you’re gonna discover the middle won’t mollify you. So whether whiskey’s your go-to or you’re like my gin-drinking friend, no matter what you are imbibing, you’ll be better off in the end reading the end.
[BEEP]WHISKEY JENNY: I support the spiderwebs in theory.
GIN JENNY: Whiskey Jenny hates liberation. This story at 10:00.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t!
[LAUGHTER] [BEEP]