It’s Wednesday, and I am running out of ways to say that the world feels more on fire than usual. But I hope that our podcast can be a small escape from the news. Call your reps, then hunker down under a weighted blanket with some chocolate cake and join in with our extremely high level of enthusiasm for Lord of the Rings and the books we already own and are determined to read at last — plus a literary fiction book that was really really not in our wheelhouse.
You can listen to the podcast using the embedded player below, or download the file directly to take with you on the go!
Here are the time signatures if you want to skip around!
0:21 – What we’re reading
3:05 – What we’re learning
9:01 – LOTR Reread: Fellowship of the Ring, Book 2, Chapters 1-5
26:10 – Summer TBR Piles
39:47 – Halsey Street, Naima Coster
49:31 – What we’re reading next time
Get at me on Twitter, email the podcast, and friend me (Gin Jenny) and Whiskey Jenny on Goodreads. If you like what we do, support us on Patreon. Or if you wish, you can find us on iTunes (and if you enjoy the podcast, give us a good rating! We appreciate it very very much).
Credits
Producer: Captain Hammer
Photo credit: The Illustrious Annalee
Theme song by: Jessie Barbour
Transcripts by: Sharon of Library Hungry
Transcript is available below the cut!
THEME SONG: You don’t judge a book by its cover. Page one’s not a much better view. And shortly you’re gonna discover the middle won’t mollify you. So whether whiskey’s your go-to, or you’re like my gin-drinking friend, no matter what you are imbibing, you’ll be better off in the end reading the end.
GIN JENNY: Welcome to the Reading the End Bookcast with the demographically similar Jennys. I’m Gin Jenny.
WHISKEY JENNY: And I’m Whiskey Jenny.
GIN JENNY: And we are back to talk to you about books and literary happenings. On this podcast we’re going to talk about what we’re learning, which is very exciting. We’re going to proceed to part three of our Lord of the Rings reread. We’re going to do a different kind of summer reading preview. And we’re going to talk about Halsey Street, by Naima Coster. But before we get into any of that, Whiskey Jenny, what are you reading?
WHISKEY JENNY: I am rereading Harry Potter.
GIN JENNY: Aw!
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. I decided that I’m going to read it along with—because I don’t have enough reading responsibilities—[LAUGHTER] I’m going to read it along with—the Binge Mode podcast from The Ringer is doing a Harry Potter deep dive. And at first I was wavering, but then I found out that their first episode is only chapters one through six of the first book. So if they’re going to piece it out like that, I can definitely follow along. But then I found out that the very next day the next episode was out with more chapters of the book, and I was like, oh, but wait. [LAUGHTER] But no, I think I do want to read along with them and listen with them. I think it will be really fun.
GIN JENNY: That sounds really fun.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, and I also finished—I do want to mention. I finished The Astonishing Ant-Man, volume one, trade paperback.
GIN JENNY: Oh yes. And you enjoyed it with reservations, right?
WHISKEY JENNY: I did, exactly, enjoy it with reservations. As always, though, I just wish people would communicate honestly with their loved ones [LAUGHTER] about their superhero duties. Or in general, you know, it’s a good policy. But especially superheroes are really bad about this.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: And we were talking about this, because if I remember correctly, he basically abandons his kid so that supervillains won’t use her to get to him.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yes, but doesn’t tell her that.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: And you and Ashley were saying, like, supervillains do you still know she’s his daughter.
WHISKEY JENNY: That was my point. It’s just, they don’t suddenly unknow that. The cat’s out of the bag already. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know. What are you reading?
GIN JENNY: I am reading this book called America Is Not the Heart, by Elaine Castillo, which is darker than I had initially expected. It’s about a Filipino woman named Hero who comes to California to live with relatives in the ‘90s after surviving torture in a Filipino police camp. I’m only about a quarter of the way into it, but I think I really like it. There was a prologue in second person that I really liked, and I’m still enjoying, but I’m maybe slightly less excited about the third person perspective from Hero that I think is the bulk of the book.
WHISKEY JENNY: Did you say a second person prologue?
GIN JENNY: A second person prologue, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Ooh, that’s hard to pull off.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, and I liked it. I thought it was good. It did not feel affected. I enjoyed it and I thought it was interesting and unexpected and fun to read. And I’m also still reading the very, very, very long Stargate Universe fic that I mentioned in our last podcast. I bring it up again. It’s still longer than Lord of the Rings. I’m most of the way done with it. I’ve been reading it really slowly on purpose to make it last, because I really, really am enjoying it a lot. I recommend it again to listeners. It’s A Change in Energy by kvikindi, and I’m super into it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Cool.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, keep us posted.
GIN JENNY: I will.
WHISKEY JENNY: How far along percentage-wise are you?
GIN JENNY: I think I’m probably about 3/4 of the way done. It’s been quite an experience. So what are we something else-ing this week, Whiskey Jenny?
WHISKEY JENNY: We are learning else-ing this week.
GIN JENNY: This was your brilliant idea and I loved it!
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I’m excited to hear. So what are you learning?
GIN JENNY: I am learning about brains. I read this book called Behave, by Robert Sapolsky, I think, and he argued essentially that we don’t have free will. And the case he was making for this is that when you decide to pick up a pen, your brain initiates the pick up a pen action sequence before you are aware of your decision to pick up a pen. And he says, therefore there’s nothing controlling things, we don’t have free will. And I don’t think that’s a very good argument, because there’s nothing apart from your brain. Your brain is doing both things.
WHISKEY JENNY: So he’s saying there’s like a second person inside the brain running things?
GIN JENNY: Well, he’s saying there’s no central person inside the brain at all running things.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, I see. But it’s the brain running things. It’s the brain.
GIN JENNY: Right, I don’t really find that contrary to free will. The brain is a complicated thing that initiates many sequences at once, some of which take longer than others. Anyway, so I got this book about free will called Who’s in Charge, by Michael Gazzaniga, that talks about how your brain does stuff, and it’s very fascinating. But in particular, this new thing that I learned is a concept that I’m trying really hard to fix in my mind, which is why I’m choosing it to highlight on podcast. And if scientists are listening to this, prepare to sneer at my very shallow understanding of this phenomenon.
There is a thing called emergence. Have you heard of this before?
WHISKEY JENNY: Mm-mm.
GIN JENNY: The story is, we are able to understand how atoms behave, what the properties of atoms are, right? And we’re also able to understand how bowling balls behave, and bowling balls are composed of atoms. Right?
WHISKEY JENNY: OK.
GIN JENNY: But bowling balls, even though they’re composed of atoms, possess properties that atoms do not have.
WHISKEY JENNY: Huh.
GIN JENNY: Because the deal is that when complex systems of small things organize into new structures, getting bigger and bigger—like atoms becoming bowling balls—new properties that previously did not exist emerge, which is called emergence.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s like alchemy. All right, cool.
GIN JENNY: And it makes sense. Like, obviously bowling balls are not going to behave the same way as atoms.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure.
GIN JENNY: But what my book says is that this is also how neurons and brains work. You can’t figure out how a brain is going to work based on understanding individual neurons.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, interesting. OK.
GIN JENNY: And what the book argues is that control is an emergent property. So deciding not to eat food if our brain says “yum, food,” or not to hit someone who’s pissing us off, can’t be predicted by looking at neurons. But it’s something that emerges when you put together a thing as complicated as our brain. And I think that’s correct. Neuroscientists listening, please tell me what I’ve got wrong here. What are you learning?
WHISKEY JENNY: I am trying to learn some musical instruments. I’m trying to learn guitar and mandolin. Which is—
GIN JENNY: That’s so cool!
WHISKEY JENNY: —a lot. [LAUGHTER] My very kind brother and very kind roommate gave me a couple of lessons on guitar, and I’m very slowly practicing very, very quiet in my room.
GIN JENNY: All you need is three chords and the truth, Whiskey Jenny.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s right! That’s right. Snapple Alex taught me the four chord progression that many songs are composed of. And I’ve been doing a lot of googling of really, really, really easy songs to play on guitar.
GIN JENNY: Oh, terrific. I have quite a cache of easy songs to play on guitar.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, yeah, send them my way.
GIN JENNY: And we’ll trade notes, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, absolutely. There’s E major and E minor, or A major and A minor, where you just lift one finger and that’s the difference between them, and I’m really good at both of those. [LAUGHTER] They’re the easiest chords ever and I’m like, yeah, I got it.
GIN JENNY: If I’m remembering correctly, yes it’s A major and E minor.
WHISKEY JENNY: A major and E minor? There you go. It’s great. I love it. It’s the best transition ever. [LAUGHTER] On the other hand, I’ve been trying to look up how to do an F chord, and some places are like, do a barre—which is like, you have to hold all of them down with one finger and then do a chord with the rest of them. And I don’t think they understand how my hand works. Because it’s not like that.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: There’s a cheatie F chord that you can also do, but I actually find that one more challenging.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I’ve been looking those up, too, and they’re really hard, too! I don’t think my—my hand is not strong enough yet, so we can work up to it.
GIN JENNY: I put a capo on if I’m playing a song that has a bar chord in it. And it helps.
WHISKEY JENNY: I don’t understand how that works, because then don’t you have the capo on forever?
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, how can you do the other chords?
GIN JENNY: I just mean it’s easier to hold down all the strings if they are already being held down by a capo.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, I see, I see. Sorry.
GIN JENNY: You know, they’re more docile and polite.
WHISKEY JENNY: I see, I see. Got it, got it.
GIN JENNY: But it doesn’t work if the song at baseline is right at the top of my singing range, because then inching it up a half step ruins the whole thing.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, sure does.
GIN JENNY: Oh man, that’s so exciting. And what about mandolin?
WHISKEY JENNY: Much slower. [LAUGHTER] But it’s great. The mandolin is my favorite instrument.
GIN JENNY: To listen to?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Well, I can’t do anything else with it yet.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Well, I just thought you might find them very attractive.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, not to look at. To listen to.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Well, and plus now you have a history of playing three different instruments, so I thought it could also just be your favorite of things that you’ve played in your life.
WHISKEY JENNY: What are my three?
GIN JENNY: Aren’t there three? Didn’t you used to play [MUMBLE] clarinet?
WHISKEY JENNY: And piano.
GIN JENNY: Oh, then four.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Yeah, I would say I really enjoy the sound of the mandolin and a lot of songs involving mandolin. So I’m excited to pick that one up, but it’s slow going.
GIN JENNY: Well, cool. That’s a good summer project.
WHISKEY JENNY: It is. It’s fun. Very, very quietly fun.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, when I used to live—before you moved into the apartment that we shared, I would play guitar sometimes before anyone else got home. And my roommate, Lee, at the time would come home and lurk outside the door silently, because when she came in I would stop playing.
WHISKEY JENNY: Aww.
GIN JENNY: So she would lurk outside the door and listen to me, and then she’d be like, oh, it sounds really good. And I’d be like, don’t lie to me. Because I know that I’m very, very medium at guitar.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well obviously she lurked there on purpose. She must’ve wanted to hear. Why did you stop when I moved in?
GIN JENNY: I didn’t stop when I moved in, you just didn’t come home that early.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh sorry, I thought you said you used to before I moved in. But that was the Lee part. You kept playing.
GIN JENNY: I kept playing.
WHISKEY JENNY: Got it.
GIN JENNY: Well, do you want to get to Lord of the Rings?
WHISKEY JENNY: I sure do.
GIN JENNY: OK, so we read the first half of the second book in Fellowship of the Ring.
WHISKEY JENNY: Correct. A lot happened.
GIN JENNY: A lot happened, yeah!
WHISKEY JENNY: A lot happened, yeah.
GIN JENNY: It’s a lot to get through. Where we left off was, Frodo had just made it across the ford, and the Ringwraiths had been drowned in the sea, and he basically collapsed from his wound.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it’s scary. You don’t know what’s going to happen to Frodo.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. But he wakes up in the house of Elrond, and Gandalf is not that informative. Frodo wakes up and Gandalf is like, yeah, you’re alive, your friends are alive, we’re going to talk about other stuff later.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s the important stuff, though!
GIN JENNY: Well, sure, it is. But Frodo has a lot of other questions that Gandalf won’t answer.
WHISKEY JENNY: He does. I mean, he answers most of them, but he won’t tell him what happened to him.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: He answers most of them.
GIN JENNY: I guess.
WHISKEY JENNY: Frodo winkles it out of him.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: But I was happy that all the hobbits got to be reunited, because it seems like Sam was really especially very worried.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it says Sam was always at his bedside.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Samwise Gamgee, what a beautiful, beautiful soul.
GIN JENNY: He also reunites with Bilbo, who’s hanging out in the house of Elrond.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yay! After the grand feast in Rivendell, and we get to hear a whole bunch more descriptions about the elves that I snoozed through.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Oh, they’re such jerks! Bilbo and Aragorn write a song together, and some elf is like, well men and hobbits are basically the same, just like sheep are only different to other sheep.
WHISKEY JENNY: They just keep being mean. And so now every time he starts talking about elves, I just space out. And I shouldn’t do that, I know, but. [LAUGHTER] I’m predisposed against them and I’m like, ugh, all right. And then when he starts describing them, it’s like—I’m trying to see if I can find the description of, who was the one who saved them?
GIN JENNY: Oh, Glorfindel.
WHISKEY JENNY: Glorfindel, yeah. At the feast, they start describing Glorfindel.
GIN JENNY: I think there are individual elves that I will consent to read about, but en masse they’re a bit much.
WHISKEY JENNY: Ugh, they’re so annoying. This is a new experience for me for this book. I don’t remember thinking they were this annoying last time I read it. But now I’m just like, I’m done. I’m done.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, here we are. OK. “Glorfindel was tall and straight. His hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy. His eyes were bright and keen and his voice like music. On his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength.” [LAUGHTER] Oh, go to hell, Glorfindel.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Also, what’s he so happy about? The shadow is overtaking all of Middle Earth, Glorfindel!
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. And then Elrond is even more full of riddles. “He was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things, both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight. [LAUGHTER] His eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was the light of stars.” [LAUGHTER] We get it, they’re perfect. Go on.
[LAUGHTER]So, no, but it’s a very touching reunion with Bilbo. Then we have the Council of Elrond, basically.
GIN JENNY: This scene proceeds very differently than I remembered it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Me too! Because of the movie, I think.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, because of the movie, for sure. It’s interesting, because each of the people attending the meeting have a different piece of the story to share with the group.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it’s cool.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, it’s neat. The dwarves are reporting that Sauron’s been trying to use them to find Bilbo.
WHISKEY JENNY: Uh huh. Legolas is reporting that they lost Gollum.
GIN JENNY: They lost Gollum, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: And Aragorn is way harsh about it. Aragorn’s like, tell us more about how you failed us, Legolas! [LAUGHTER] He uses the word “failed,” and I was like, damn, Strider!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Actually, this is another thing I think is interesting. Of the people who tell the whole story—because Gandalf also talks about being captured by Saruman and blah blah blah. And everyone who’s contributing a piece of the story, each of them has kind of screwed up. Each person bears some blame for how things have fallen out.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Speaking of blame.
GIN JENNY: Uh huh.
WHISKEY JENNY: I remember last time you brought up the point that Gandalf really sits on this for a while, and I tried to defend him. But he sat on it for seventeen years! [LAUGHTER]
GIN JENNY: Yeah, he did. Yeah, when that came up, I was like, oh man.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I didn’t assume it was that long! He says in the book he mostly got there with the puzzle of figuring out what the ring was, but then just sat and waited for seventeen years!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, and not even for a really great reason. It’s because Saruman says, yeah, the One Ring is definitely lost, so. And Gandalf’s like, OK, cool.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: All right, great. And also, we find out that whatever the crowd of wizards is called knew that this one dude that was getting real powerful with Sauron, but they also didn’t do anything about that. They also just said, let’s just wait and see what happens.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, great strategy, guys.
WHISKEY JENNY: They knew it was Sauron. Come on!
GIN JENNY: [SIGH]
WHISKEY JENNY: I also, during this council, kind of spaced out at Elrond’s history lesson.
GIN JENNY: Oh, God, me too. I skipped over a bunch of that.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s a lot of Glorfindel son of Gloriad, with the Sword of Blahbetty Blah did something else.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, there’s a loooot of exposition in this scene.
WHISKEY JENNY: So I kind of spaced out at that. I wanted to ask your stance, though, on the songs and poems in general.
GIN JENNY: I pretty much skip them all.
WHISKEY JENNY: When they’re short ones, I’m like, oh this is charming. When it’s the three page epic poem—
GIN JENNY: Oh my God!
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s a lot. I don’t know if this maybe makes me not a real Tolkien fan, but it’s a lot.
GIN JENNY: And I agree with you, the short ones can be really effective. I’ve heard the lines about the ring like a zillion times and it’s so overdone. But still, every time I hear “one ring to rule them all,” it’s so creepy. It always sends a chill up my spine.
WHISKEY JENNY: It is, yeah.
GIN JENNY: But then these really long ones I always skip.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, OK. I read them, but I’m like, what was that for?
GIN JENNY: OK, I skim. At best I skim.
WHISKEY JENNY: And I also don’t read a lot of epic poetry in general, so I’m not a good, skilled reader at it. I’m sure that’s also part of the problem.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, but it’s not so interesting.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, it’s not. But I just want to point out, Strider continues to be the nicest to the hobbits.
GIN JENNY: Yes, by a lot.
WHISKEY JENNY: I love him for that. And during that meeting, I love how prickly Boromir is about his country. I kind of like it.
GIN JENNY: I like it, too.
WHISKEY JENNY: He’s really proud, but it’s sweet. It’s very human, I guess.
GIN JENNY: Because they keep saying, well, Gondor’s not that great, and he’s like, no, Gondor is that great!
WHISKEY JENNY: Gondor’s really great. Be quiet, you guys. Shut up.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Also, that’s a pretty jerky thing for them to say.
WHISKEY JENNY: Right to his face!
GIN JENNY: Gondor has been the vanguard of protecting all of Middle Earth.
WHISKEY JENNY: Gondor’s working really hard. Can we throw them a little compliment once in a while?
GIN JENNY: And also the elves are just like, well, we definitely can’t help with anything over there.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, but we are going to comment upon how good a job you’re doing. [LAUGHTER] Stupid elves.
GIN JENNY: Ugh, always the worst.
WHISKEY JENNY: The other thing that I thought was going to happen in this that I totally mixed up from the movie, is I thought the Council was also when everyone starts volunteering to go on the fellowship.
GIN JENNY: And it really is not. Just Frodo.
WHISKEY JENNY: There are some great lines where it’s like, you can have my sword, and my axe, in the movie. And it’s a really nice scene. I kind of like it in the movie better. But in this one—
GIN JENNY: Oh my gosh, me too. Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Only Frodo volunteers, and then later on Elrond picks people, basically.
GIN JENNY: I like it better the first way. And I really love the line that Strider says, where he says, “If by my life or death I can protect you, I will.” That was really good.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s really good, yeah. But we do still get Frodo’s lines, and those remain just amazingly heroic.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. Bilbo also offers to take the ring to Mordor, which is so sweet.
WHISKEY JENNY: I love that the people who don’t know him are sort of laughing at this silly hobbit to do this, but the people who actually know who he is are very respectful and take it seriously, but are also like, you’ve done enough. Not messed up, but like, you get to relax now.
GIN JENNY: Which is so sweet, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: But oh Frodo. Oh sweet, heroic Frodo. It’s so brave. And he doesn’t know the way, but he’s going to take the ring anyway.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, it’s so nice. Also, speaking of Bilbo, when Frodo is telling everyone the story of how he got to Rivendell, there’s such a charming meta comment that Bilbo makes. Because Bilbo’s planning to turn all this into a book. And he says, “There are whole chapters of stuff before you ever got here.” Like, all right, Tolkien, I see what you’re doing.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. He’s not wrong, though. Because I was looking at it, and on page 274 the Fellowship is finally a Fellowship that leaves Rivendell.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Page 274. That’s a lot. You know I wouldn’t cut Tom Bombadil ever, but maybe we could condense that in the beginning, a little bit.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Did I tell you, I was at dinner with my family, and I was complaining about Tom Bombadil to my sister.
WHISKEY JENNY: No!
GIN JENNY: So we were talking about it, and my dad and my aunt were not really listening. But when I said “Tom Bombadil,” they both looked up. And my dad goes, “But he’s as old as the Earth.”
WHISKEY JENNY: [GASP]
GIN JENNY: And I said, I find his trophy wife annoying. And my aunt goes, “The river daughter?”
WHISKEY JENNY: [GASP] Oh! Yay! Team Tom Bombadil!
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: It was so nerdy!
WHISKEY JENNY: I still haven’t marshaled my argument as to why she’s not a trophy wife, but soon. I shall present it soon. It will be a PowerPoint.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: I’m not trying to make you re-litigate it. I just thought it was really charming that they both came up with these—
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it’s very sweet!
GIN JENNY: OK, so they leave Rivendell.
WHISKEY JENNY: At last.
GIN JENNY: And they’re trying to cross the Misty Mountains, which goes super badly.
WHISKEY JENNY: Does not go well. I have a question about this.
GIN JENNY: OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: I feel like there’s a ton of place descriptions in these books, and I was wondering how you were doing with them.
GIN JENNY: Doing OK.
WHISKEY JENNY: Like, setting descriptions.
GIN JENNY: It helps that I’ve seen the movies, so I have kind of a picture in my head, anyway. So I can kind of map the words onto what I’ve seen in the movies. Because I think I’ve probably said that one of my problems with place descriptions is they’re completely wasted on me because I can’t make pictures in my head. So if there’s already pictures in my head, I think that helps.
WHISKEY JENNY: So are you already imagining all the cast members?
GIN JENNY: Less that than the places, but definitely for some of them I am. For sure Gandalf and Aragorn and Boromir.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, they really nailed those three.
GIN JENNY: Oh yeah, they’re so good. Sean Bean is so good.
WHISKEY JENNY: He’s so good. OK, but so it doesn’t go well. They try and cross the mountains.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, Caradhras, and it’s very snowy. And everyone’s like, well, we’re going to just die up here.
WHISKEY JENNY: But they don’t. They build a magic fire and they have some magic restorative potion to drink.
GIN JENNY: Right, yes.
WHISKEY JENNY: And they make it through the snow. OK, here’s what I want to talk about this now. After the snow and they have to get back down, they’re like, OK, we can’t go this way. We gotta get back down. Aragorn and Boromir, as the strongest, largest ones, start clearing a path for everyone else, because they’re gosh darn heroes.
GIN JENNY: Yup, yup.
WHISKEY JENNY: And then Legolas is like, you know, this seems lame. I’m just going to walk on top and gloat about it to everyone else. [LAUGHTER] Because he’s a jerk!
GIN JENNY: No, no, he’s scouting the terrain for them.
WHISKEY JENNY: I know he does helpful things with it, but the way he announces that he’s going to do it is really annoying.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Especially while all the hobbits are freezing to death.
WHISKEY JENNY: Everyone’s freezing to death, and Boromir and Aragorn are working so hard, and he’s like, you know what I can do is this. [LAUGHTER] Well, good for you. Great! [LAUGHTER] I actually like this exchange, because it happens right after he’s like, you know what would be great is if Gandalf could just melt the snow magically. And Gandalf responds, well, you know what would be great, is if elves could just go bring the sun and then melt it. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, go Gandalf!
GIN JENNY: Yeah, people getting snippy on Caradhras.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I mean, they went through a lot, to be fair.
GIN JENNY: They did.
WHISKEY JENNY: But then they decide they have to go through the Mines of Moria!
GIN JENNY: Which literally nobody has a good feeling about, at all.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, but Boromir keeps bringing it back up. But it’s like, yeah, nobody thinks this is a great idea, but if you have any other plans, let us know.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Well, I think he’s still pushing to have them go through the Gap of Rohan.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s true, he does have other plans.
GIN JENNY: And Gandalf has nixed that plan. And I think Boromir rightly—or maybe not rightly, but with some defense—thinks that Moria is a bad idea.
WHISKEY JENNY: But he just will not let it go. He keeps being like, I don’t know, I’ve got a really bad feeling about this.
GIN JENNY: OK, but to be fair, Aragorn says, eh, you’re probably going to die down there, Gandalf.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. But Aragorn just says it once and then is done.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, that’s true.
WHISKEY JENNY: And Boromir keeps bringing it up. [LAUGHTER] Right, OK, and then they have to go through the Mines of Moria. But there’s some stuff that attacks them before they get through the door.
GIN JENNY: Oh my gosh, yeah. There’s a tentacle monster.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, the wolves.
GIN JENNY: Oh right, and the wargs, yes!
WHISKEY JENNY: Which are wolves, right?
GIN JENNY: I figured wargs are to wolves what orcs are to humans.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, cool.
GIN JENNY: So I think they’re messed-up, meaner, scarier wolves.
WHISKEY JENNY: OK, cool.
GIN JENNY: That’s based on nothing. That’s just an analogy I have.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, all right. It’s going on the record.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Yeah, so they get attacked by wargs. They get attacked by a tentacle monster outside the Mines of Moria. And then they get caved in in the Mines of Moria. So they can’t go back.
WHISKEY JENNY: And the Mines of Moria are a legendary place that everyone has already heard about being terrible, and also a whole bunch of dwarves died there, right?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, are presumed dead there.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, but they used to rule it, and then they lost it and it became a terrible place.
GIN JENNY: A doomed place.
WHISKEY JENNY: A doomed place, yeah.
GIN JENNY: And it is, indeed, terrible.
WHISKEY JENNY: Turns out, not great.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Frodo notably has heightened senses now.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, everything is heightened. Drink.
GIN JENNY: And we get our first inkling that Gollum is following them.
WHISKEY JENNY: The pitter patter of small feet is behind them.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, he can hear bare feet behind them.
WHISKEY JENNY: And he sees two glowing eyes. I kind of want Frodo to mention this to someone. Is he going to mention it to someone soon?
GIN JENNY: Yes, it seems crazy not to. He’s with a bunch of smart people who know a lot of things.
WHISKEY JENNY: They’re on the same team. We know how great this team is at communication.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: He’s not good at keeping secrets, though, so I’m kind of surprised he didn’t mention it.
WHISKEY JENNY: True, yeah. So then we also have Pippin’s first stumble, I suppose.
GIN JENNY: Yes.
WHISKEY JENNY: Where he drops a rock into a well and then Gandalf freaks the F out on him and is like, oh my God, why did you do that! And I kind of feel like, I’m kind of on Pippin’s side in this. It did have some bad repercussions, but no one beforehand briefed them on, definitely don’t drop any rocks down wells. How was he supposed to know?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I think there was kind of a vibe of don’t touch anything.
WHISKEY JENNY: Hm. No one said it out loud, though.
GIN JENNY: Sure, that’s true. Yeah, Gandalf should have said it out loud. But maybe he thought it went without saying. Nobody else was touching anything.
WHISKEY JENNY: I guess.
GIN JENNY: But it does turn out badly, because then a whole living crap ton of orcs show up with a cave troll that nobody can fight at all.
WHISKEY JENNY: Cave troll, and also—
GIN JENNY: And moreover—
WHISKEY JENNY: A Balrog!
GIN JENNY: A Balrog.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: Which they only see after they find—I just like this scene. I think it works really well in the movie and in the book.
GIN JENNY: I agree.
WHISKEY JENNY: And I think doing suspenseful, actiony scenes in writing is really hard. But it totally works, because they find the tomb of Balin, who were the newer dwarves who went there to try and revitalize Moria. And no one knew what happened to them. Turns out, death happened to them. [LAUGHTER] And they’re reading the diary of this expedition, the logs of the expedition. And at the end, it just gets super illegible, and they can only read the words horror, and doom, and drums. And then “they are coming” is the last thing.
GIN JENNY: It’s like, “We cannot get out. They are coming.”
WHISKEY JENNY: And they start hearing drums—boom, boom—throughout the mine as they finish reading this diary. And it’s just so spooky.
GIN JENNY: It’s really spooky.
WHISKEY JENNY: And they almost get trapped themselves.
GIN JENNY: And the Balrog basically shows up right when they are able to see the way out, the path out. They’re so close to freedom.
WHISKEY JENNY: They do one fight, and they win, they hold off the assault of the orcs. And everyone’s fighting. Even Sam kills some people. And they say no one in the Shire would have recognized the fire in his eyes. And Frodo has his secret mithril armor to save him from—
GIN JENNY: A stab wound.
WHISKEY JENNY: A stab wound. He comes to life in Aragorn’s arms, and I really like the image of Aragorn freaking out. Like, oh my God! You’re alive! [LAUGHTER] But then, they almost escape, and then the Balrog appears.
GIN JENNY: And Gandalf fights it for them. And he succeeds in casting it down into the pit, but it drags him down.
WHISKEY JENNY: Like, it falls, and then it brings up its little whip and grabs his ankle, and drags him down with it. And he has a good last line. What’s his last line?
GIN JENNY: “Fly, you fools.”
WHISKEY JENNY: So good!
GIN JENNY: So good. So Gandalf.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yay!
GIN JENNY: [SIGH] Well, farewell, Gandalf.
WHISKEY JENNY: I know. The very first time I read these, I did not know Gandalf was coming back, and I thought Gandalf was dead, and I was pretty gutted.
GIN JENNY: Aw.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. It’s sad for the team, ‘cause they all think he’s dead, and they’re grief stricken and sort of lost without their—he’s been the de facto leader up to now. But we know he’s coming back. It’s going to be OK.
GIN JENNY: Thank God.
WHISKEY JENNY: Phew.
GIN JENNY: So next time we’re reading the rest of Fellowship of the Ring. We’re going to finish off the first book in the trilogy.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s right.
GIN JENNY: So exciting.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s flying by. I can’t believe it.
GIN JENNY: It really is.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh. Sorry, I’m just looking at the chapter names, and it looks like a lot of elf stuff is about to happen.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: We get three chapters of elves. Good lord.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I know they spent a really long time with Galadriel.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, “Lothlorien,” and then we’ve got “The Mirror of Galadriel,” and then we finally have “Farewell to Lorien.”
GIN JENNY: [SIGH]
WHISKEY JENNY: So. Elves coming up.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. Plenty of elves coming out up.
WHISKEY JENNY: Our favorite. We’re going to get angry emails from elf fans.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Bring it on. I stand by what I’ve said.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. They’re kind of jerks.
GIN JENNY: We should keep out a watch for elves doing nice things, doing and saying nice things.
WHISKEY JENNY: That’s fair. That’s nice. That’s true.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, we’ll see what our results are.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, for this time, we’re not going to talk about summer books that we are excited to read that are coming out this summer. Summer books already on our to-be-read shelf that we’re excited to read this summer.
GIN JENNY: Which, I love the topic, because there are always so many things that I want to read.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah! And one of my favorite things about summer is packing books for vacation.
GIN JENNY: Oh, yes, so good.
WHISKEY JENNY: Or to read at the beach, or by a pool. Because there’s a lot of good reading time coming up in summer.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, sure is.
WHISKEY JENNY: Picking them out for packing is just really fun, so that’s almost what this felt like, is I was about to go on a trip and I was packing my books for that trip.
GIN JENNY: Aw. What’s your first vacation book then?
WHISKEY JENNY: I have taken a photo of them and organized them from smallest to largest. So I will start with smallest.
GIN JENNY: Oh, nice.
WHISKEY JENNY: But the first one is How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents, by Julia Alvarez. She blurbed The House of Broken Angels that we both read recently.
GIN JENNY: Oh, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: And I thought, oh, that’s right, I own that book. I should read it. It’s a multigenerational family saga. You know how I like it.
GIN JENNY: Yes.
WHISKEY JENNY: And it’s just been on my shelf for a while, and I thought oh, now is the perfect time to visit it.
GIN JENNY: Awesome. I read that a while ago, and I remember almost nothing about it, so I have nothing to add. I’m sorry.
WHISKEY JENNY: So it sounds it’s a family that starts out in Spanish Caribbean society, and then they have to flee in exile. And they move to the Bronx. And I think it’s sort of how they make their new lives in the Bronx. And there’s four daughters.
GIN JENNY: Cool. Well, my first one is—so I want to catch up on some of my reading goals this summer.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, nice. Yeah.
GIN JENNY: So my first one is that I want to read The World and a Very Small Place in Africa, by Donald Wright, which is on my list of African histories. And if I read it, it’s going to be my first African history that I’ve read this year, which is not great. But the problem is—and I have whined about this to you—but the problem is, I had in mind two countries I wanted to learn all about, Mali and Mauritania. And I have been so thwarted in finding a book about Mali. I keep thinking, OK, I’m going to take this time, I’m going to buckle down and find a book about the empire in Mali. And then there’s nothing! There are no comprehensive histories of this empire in English. And I have looked so many times, but even as I’m saying it to you, it seems ridiculous and impossible that this empire that lasted hundreds of years and comprised half a million square miles of territory doesn’t have a comprehensive history in English. But if there is one, I have not yet been able to find it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, listeners, let us know if you find one. But.
GIN JENNY: God, yes, please. I would be so grateful.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s ridiculous, but also I guess I could believe it, because history is not great.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. It’s just so disappointing.
WHISKEY JENNY: I know. So have you decided an alternate course of action?
GIN JENNY: I don’t really have a solution to the Mali problem. I’m shifting gears for now. The World and a Very Small Place in Africa is about a place called Niumi, located at the mouth of the Gambia River, so I’m going to make it my book for The Gambia. My understanding is the author goes really deep into how this small place grew and changed and shifted as a result of changing world systems. So he’ll talk about what it was like prior to Europeans arriving on the coast, and then he’ll talk about, OK, demographically what changed when central Africa started needing a lot more horses? What changed when Europe got really excited about sugar and sugar plantations? And so on like that. So it really contextualizes this place with everything that was going on internationally.
WHISKEY JENNY: That sounds like a cool concept.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, so that’s my first one and I’m extremely excited to read it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Cool. My second one is The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter, by Carson McCullers.
GIN JENNY: Oh, wow. OK, cool, yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah just take sort of one classic in my packing. In my packing for this fake vacation that we’re going on together.
GIN JENNY: Uh huh. Oh yeah, that would be so fun.
WHISKEY JENNY: Because sometimes you have a lot more brain space to devote to things when you’re reading in different places. This book has been recommended to me a lot. In particular it’s one of the favorites of my former boss at work, whose taste I very much appreciate. I also have been told that I look like Carson McCullers, as one of my random celebrity doppelgangers.
GIN JENNY: Really? OK, hang on, I’m going to Google her. I know that you’ve told me this before. Uh, I can kind of see it. You’re prettier than she is.
WHISKEY JENNY: Aw.
GIN JENNY: I thought you were mad at me for insulting Carson McCullers.
WHISKEY JENNY: A little bit, but thank you.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: But I can see she has a kind of similar nose and her face shape is kind of similar. I can kind of see it.
WHISKEY JENNY: She has sort of chipmunky cheeks like I do, too.
GIN JENNY: You do not have chipmunky cheeks.
WHISKEY JENNY: They’re very puffy. I don’t say this self-consciously. It’s just an accurate statement of facts.
GIN JENNY: Hers are quite puffy. I mean, more than yours. Well, let me know how it is. Did she write The Member of the Wedding?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yes.
GIN JENNY: OK, I read that one, but I did not read The Heart is a Lonely Hunter.
WHISKEY JENNY: What did you think of The Member of the Wedding?
GIN JENNY: It was pretty good. Well, it bummed me out, because it’s about someone who wants to be more involved in something than the people doing the thing want her to be involved. It’s a girl, she wants to be involved in her sister’s wedding, and they want her involvement to be limited. So you know.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sounds sad.
GIN JENNY: It is. I felt a lot of secondhand embarrassment, so that was difficult.
WHISKEY JENNY: What’s your next one?
GIN JENNY: OK, so my next one is Counternarratives, by John Keene, and this was recommended to me by Charlotte Geater on Twitter a while ago. I think it is a collection of short stories, although I read a review of it in The Kenyon Review that said, “Counternarratives is neither a collection of short stories—”
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: You fool!
GIN JENNY: “—nor the sort of linked novel-by-proxy series that has become increasingly common.” But I think they just meant it is a collection of short stories, and they are linked, but they’re not linked by a plot. They’re linked thematically.
WHISKEY JENNY: But it’s a collection of short stories, still.
GIN JENNY: That’s what I think.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, let us know when you read it, what it is.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: OK. I’m pretty sure it’s a collection of short stories.
WHISKEY JENNY: Like, that’s also not the first time that that’s happened, is a collection of short stories linked thematically.
GIN JENNY: Right? That is not a special category. Yeah!
WHISKEY JENNY: I mean, it’s a cool category, but it’s not the first entry in that category.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: But what drew me particularly is apparently one of the stories is about Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn, and Jim all meeting many years after the Mark Twain books. Tom Sawyer has grown up into a gross jerk, a gross racist jerk, which is exactly what you would expect.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. I mean, that’s not surprising.
GIN JENNY: So I’m interested to see how it talks back to those books, which I don’t know how much of the nuance I’ll pick up on, because it’s been a really long time since I read Huckleberry Finn. And I don’t think I ever read Tom Sawyer. By choice. [DEFIANTLY] I don’t think Huckleberry Finn is a good book.
WHISKEY JENNY: I also haven’t read it in forever.
GIN JENNY: I remember thinking it was really fragmented. It just didn’t feel cohesive at all. And I feel like we’ve been tricked into believing that it’s a good book when it actually really is not.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, you heard it here first.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: What’s your next one?
WHISKEY JENNY: My next one is The Little Stranger, by Sarah Waters.
GIN JENNY: [GASP] Yay!
WHISKEY JENNY: Yay! Which I think Ashley got for me, I think from a used bookstore that she found. And I’ve been really looking forward to it, and I’ve brought it on several trips, but I just haven’t gotten to it. And I do love Sarah Waters, and yet somehow have still only read Tipping the Velvet and Fingersmith, so I’m excited to continue on my Sarah Waters journey.
GIN JENNY: Ashley was telling us that they’re making a movie of The Little Stranger starring Domhnall Gleeson and Ruth Wilson? Ruth Wilson. And I didn’t realize that the trailer is already out.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, I didn’t know that either.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I watched the movie trailer. It looks creepy.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, the book is creepy, right? This is the sort of maybe ghost one?
GIN JENNY: Yeah, like maybe ghost, maybe poltergeist kind of situation.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. So I’m looking forward. What’s your next one?
GIN JENNY: Oh gosh, this book has been sitting on my shelf for so long, and I feel bad about it. So this summer is the time. It’s Hell or High Water, by Joy Castro. And it’s a mystery novel set in New Orleans. The protagonist is from the Ninth Ward and now works for the Times Pic, and her editor assigns her a story about sex offenders whose records were destroyed in Katrina, so they went off the grid, basically. Which did in fact happen as I understand it. The author is not from New Orleans but her husband is, so I’m hoping that her depiction of the city will be OK, because it sounds like she spent a lot of time in New Orleans. But basically I just haven’t read this because it sound real grim.
WHISKEY JENNY: Sure does, yeah. And you don’t like flood stories.
GIN JENNY: I don’t think it’s a flood story, though. I think it all happens after Katrina, so I don’t think there’s much flood stuff. There’s aftermath stuff.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s got high water right there in the title, though.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, I know. Well, if it gets too floody, I can always quit. So I’m going to read it or bust. This summer is the time.
WHISKEY JENNY: Hooray! My next one is The Girl from Everywhere, by Heidi Heilig, which you have read, Gin Jenny, and recommended to me. I think I actually got it before I went to Hawaii, but I didn’t get to it. So I think it’ll still be a good summer, oceany, watery book to read. And this is one of my other extremely engaging, plotty books.
GIN JENNY: Yes. And this is the time-traveling pirates book.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yes. Of course, yes.
GIN JENNY: I’m so excited. I think you’ll really like it. My next one is Under the Pendulum Sun, by Jeannette Ng. OK, I’m going to tell you how I came to acquire this book, and it’s not going to reflect really well on me.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh dear. OK.
GIN JENNY: I have this friend Alice. She’s great. And we both like to read a lot. But we very rarely enjoy the same books. A few months ago, she bought this book, Under the Pendulum Sun, that I was also excited to read. It’s about this woman in the olden days, like the 1800s, I think, and her missionary brother has disappeared while he’s on a mission to the realm of the fairies. And she sets out on a journey to find him. And Alice bought it and she started reading it, and she told me she liked it. And I was like, crap. If you like it, I’m not going to like it. And I really wanted to like it.
And I was like, well, Alice buy books a lot and then doesn’t read them right away. But I don’t do that. So if I get it and I read it really, really quickly, then I’ll like it first before she has a chance to. [LAUGHTER] That was insane.
[LAUGHTER]WHISKEY JENNY: I mean, yeah, a little bit.
GIN JENNY: It was like, if she hadn’t finished it yet, her liking it was kind of Schrödinger’s cat, you know?
WHISKEY JENNY: No, I don’t know. [LAUGHTER] Sorry. I’ve A, never understood that experiment, and B, do not understand it in relation to this example.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: I just mean things were still up in the air. If she hadn’t finished it then it was still possible for me to like it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, OK. I see. She doesn’t like it or dislike it yet.
GIN JENNY: Exactly.
WHISKEY JENNY: Still crazy, though. I’m sorry.
GIN JENNY: No, it was completely crazy. Yeah, and I also bought the book, and she didn’t bring it up again. So she wasn’t reading it, so I didn’t read it. And I lost my feeling of competitiveness. [LAUGHTER] But I actually really do so want to read it. It sounds so cool. It’s alternate history with magic, and I love that.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Do you know what her ultimate judgment on it was?
GIN JENNY: No, she didn’t finish it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, she didn’t finish it.
GIN JENNY: I was correct. She did the thing that I thought she was going to do, where she bought it and then didn’t finish it. So, yeah. What about you? What’s your last one?
WHISKEY JENNY: My last one is The Thirst, by Jo Nesbo.
GIN JENNY: Oh, cool. Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: Who is a Norwegian mystery series writer. He wrote the book that the terrible Snowman movie was recently based on. [LAUGHTER] But let’s not blame that on him.
GIN JENNY: Oh, I don’t. No, no.
WHISKEY JENNY: So yeah, I have this giant hardback that my dad lent me that’s one of Harry Hole detective stories. And it’s just a detective mystery series that I really enjoy. I think I’m possibly reading them out of order. But I’m trying to be OK with that, because I kind of forgot where it was anyway. And I have this one, so I’m like I can probably just like catch up and read this one.
And also for a while the translations, they didn’t translate the first three in the series. So if you’re a non-Norwegian speaker, you had to start with three anyway. I’m like, well I already can’t be a completionist, so let’s just go buck wild and read whatever we want. [LAUGHTER] And I have this one, so that’s what we’re doing. I think now they have recently released translations of their earlier ones, so I’m excited to go back and read the origin story, as well. Yeah, the first. It’s got a spooky black and white photo of water on the cover, I’m excited. And fog. Obviously, there’s fog.
GIN JENNY: Right, naturally there would have to be.
WHISKEY JENNY: There’s always fog, yeah. What’s your last one?
GIN JENNY: OK, my last one is The Great Gatsby by F Scott Fitzgerald.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, really?
GIN JENNY: I’ve read it before.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, no, I’m just fascinated.
GIN JENNY: Oh, why?
WHISKEY JENNY: It just doesn’t seem like your kind of a book. And yet I know that you have read it before.
GIN JENNY: Well there was this really funny Great Gatsby joke making the rounds on Twitter. Did you see this, about Ryan Reynolds.?
WHISKEY JENNY: Yes.
GIN JENNY: So listeners, the joke was that Ryan Reynolds should play The Great Gatsby because he’d already played the Green Lantern and Deadpool. Which is a really funny joke based on the contents of The Great Gatsby.
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s a great joke.
GIN JENNY: And it reminded me I want to reread this book and see if it holds up, because when I was 20 and I read it, I was really, really, really into it. But now I’m older, and I really want to still like it, because I enjoy that it’s a book about how terrible rich people are. But I’ve reread this year two books by white guys that I loved 10 years ago, and I was super unimpressed by both of them. So I think when I let a decade or more pass, things could really change. So I don’t know what to expect from The Great Gatsby. But I hope I still like it. I would like to still like it.
WHISKEY JENNY: Me too. That would be great.
GIN JENNY: Do you not care for it?
WHISKEY JENNY: I didn’t dislike it. I think I read it in college? And I was sort of like, sure, fine, whatever.
[LAUGHTER]GIN JENNY: Honestly, that’s kind of what I expect my reaction to be, but we’ll see.
WHISKEY JENNY: Which I feel bad about.
GIN JENNY: Why?
WHISKEY JENNY: I feel like I just need to find my Fitzgerald. It just wasn’t my Fitzgerald.
GIN JENNY: You could also just not like Fitzgerald. That’s fine.
WHISKEY JENNY: That can’t be, though.
GIN JENNY: I don’t really like most of that generation of writers.
WHISKEY JENNY: Who else was in that generation?
GIN JENNY: Like Hemingway, Gertrude Stein, all those people.
WHISKEY JENNY: I’ve never heard a Hemingway novel, and I have not read much Gertrude Stein, so.
GIN JENNY: Oh, save yourself.
WHISKEY JENNY: But I’ve read some Hemingway short stories that I really like.
GIN JENNY: Alexis and I both felt that he’s best in short story format.
WHISKEY JENNY: Which makes me feel fine about sticking to short stories so far.
GIN JENNY: Yeah. Great, great decision.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well great. I think we have some good combos. I’ve got a mystery, a YA, a plotty ghost story, a classic, and a multigenerational family saga. So I’m excited about that combination.
GIN JENNY: Oh yeah. I’ve got a pretty good one, too. I’ve got a classic, a mystery, a fantasy novel, short stories, and nonfiction.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. Nice.
GIN JENNY: I didn’t do that on purpose, but that worked out well.
WHISKEY JENNY: I kind of did. I was like, I need different vibes.
GIN JENNY: That’s one of the elements I consider when I’m packing for a vacation. Because I want to have a range of things.
WHISKEY JENNY: You’ve got to have choice. What if that day I wake up and don’t feel like a mystery anymore? I’m very changeable, like the wind.
GIN JENNY: Oh my gosh, me too. Especially when I’m on vacation. I can’t predict Vacation Jenny.
WHISKEY JENNY: God, no. She’s a wild card.
GIN JENNY: All right, so for this week we read Halsey Street, by Naima Coster. And this is a book about a woman called Penelope who moves from Pittsburgh back to Brooklyn where she grew up to look after her father, who is elderly and needs someone in town to keep an eye on him. It’s about gentrification and parent-child relationships, and a lot of different topics. It really was not for me. What did you think of it, Whiskey Jenny?
WHISKEY JENNY: Also very much not for me.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: And I say that, I don’t mean that I think it was a bad book. I think it’s just not for us.
GIN JENNY: Yes, I agree with that.
WHISKEY JENNY: In general it’s just not very forgiving of its characters, I would say.
GIN JENNY: Yes, I think that’s very true, yes. It’s not kind to its characters.
WHISKEY JENNY: And I prefer a book that is kinder to its characters, I guess.
GIN JENNY: And in particular, I found Penelope really frustrating as a heroine because she doesn’t want anything, or I can’t discern what she wants to have happen in her life. She’s mean to her parents, she’s mean to the bartender she goes out with. She sleeps with her married landlord, which is gross. And I could have rolled with all of that, but I struggled with it because I couldn’t figure out what she wanted out of her life.
WHISKEY JENNY: Or why she’s doing them.
GIN JENNY: Why she’s doing them, I didn’t know and I couldn’t figure out—she clearly doesn’t want the things she has and the people she has, but I couldn’t figure out what she did want. And that’s a very challenging thing for me in a protagonist.
WHISKEY JENNY: It is, yeah. And you said you could easily roll—not easily, but you said you would be happy to roll with all that.
GIN JENNY: Potentially.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, potentially. Yeah, but that’s still a lot. Let’s not gloss over that. It is still a lot to take in.
GIN JENNY: Yeah.
WHISKEY JENNY: She’s very cruel to her parents. And we do get some flashbacks and they weren’t the best parents, either.
GIN JENNY: No, oh, for sure not.
WHISKEY JENNY: But I would say both ways, it’s not a good relationship.
GIN JENNY: Well, and the reason that I say that I think it could have rolled with it is that we get some chapters from the perspective of her mother, who is in many ways a more potentially unsympathetic point of view character than Penelope is. But I still could enjoy spending time with her because I understood what she wanted. She wanted a different kind of relationship with Penelope, and even though I was like, well, you didn’t cultivate that relationship, so it’s kind of on you.
WHISKEY JENNY: No, you did not.
GIN JENNY: But I still felt like I had a stake in that. She wanted freedom, and I cared about that, too.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: But Penelope, I couldn’t—
WHISKEY JENNY: I think what Penelope wants is for things to have been different previously, which is reasonable but pointless, I guess.
GIN JENNY: Yes. I have very little patience with that type of protagonist.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. And also, I’m glad you brought up her mom. Well, first of all, I do enjoy the structure of this book. I enjoy the multiple perspectives of it from her mom, as well. And I think it’s also good at, it sketches out the surface level and then slowly dives deeper into what was going on. And I appreciate that sort of unfolding.
And I have to be honest, I ran out of time right before this podcast, so I have like 20 more pages to go. But it seems to me like Penelope is the most angry at her mom—
GIN JENNY: I agree.
WHISKEY JENNY: For leaving.
GIN JENNY: What we find out happens is that the mother had an argument with the father, Ralph, that culminated in him falling down the stairs. And even though it wasn’t her fault exactly—
WHISKEY JENNY: Penelope super blames her.
GIN JENNY: Penelope really blames her, and then later the mother leaves the family. And she also at no point is a good mother to Penelope. She’s very hostile to her and doesn’t listen to her, and resents her very much.
WHISKEY JENNY: But Ralph has also not been a good father to her, and yet—
GIN JENNY: No. Nor a good husband.
WHISKEY JENNY: Great point. Nor a good husband. And yet Penelope is way more forgiving of her father, I think, than her mother. And also—and maybe it’s sort of a projection to me, but it’s confusing to me that the thing she’s most angry about, like the fall and her leaving, seem like to me the things I wouldn’t be angry about. Like I would be more pissed about the previous 22 years or whatever age she was, when you were a terrible mother. But the fact that he fell and then she left, I think what you’re fond of saying a lot is sometimes there’s no villains in breakups. I guess in this one, sometimes both of them are villains. But Penelope, and I would say to some extent the book, really blames her for leaving Ralph.
GIN JENNY: Interesting. I—and maybe this is because I find that element of Mirella’s character pretty understandable—so I felt like the book did not necessarily blame her that much, but that Penelope blamed her very deeply. And the impression I got with Penelope is that she’s angry with her mother for a lot of things, but this thing is something everyone can easily understand. It’s a really clear-cut failing of her mother. Penelope says she pushed the father down the stairs and then left. And so I think more than that actually being the worst thing that she did, it’s just something Penelope has kind of pinning all her resentment on.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I guess that makes sense. But I think the book does a good job of, when you get Mirella’s perspective, she was unhappy in her marriage and no longer wanted to be married to that person. And that’s not an unforgivable flaw. Sometimes that just happens.
GIN JENNY: Yeah no, not at all. And the book goes back and forth between an array of times and perspective. So there’s some stuff set in the present day from Penelope’s point of view, some stuff in the present day from her mom’s point of view, and then there’s flashbacks with both of them as Penelope was growing up, and learning more about the life that they lived in Brooklyn together.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, and I thought that was really well done. I never had a hard time figuring out what time era we were in. It was always very subtly signaled somehow. So yeah, overall I really enjoyed this structure.
GIN JENNY: Was there anything else that you enjoyed, as overall a negative experience?
WHISKEY JENNY: Anything else I enjoyed. Oh, I guess—I mean, the book was really nice to Jon, I guess. He was the one character that was like, this is a good person.
GIN JENNY: Yes. That’s the bartender that she develops a relationship with.
WHISKEY JENNY: It was just odd to me that that was the only person that was portrayed in that light. It was like, him? All right. Sure.
GIN JENNY: And the kid.
WHISKEY JENNY: Oh, that’s true. The kid, yeah.
GIN JENNY: At the start of the book, Penelope is a tenant for this white family. It’s two parents and a little girl. And little girl’s real sweet. But Penelope still sleeps with her father.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. So let’s talk about what goes on with that family.
GIN JENNY: [SIGH] Oh, God. I—
WHISKEY JENNY: We don’t have to, I guess. But it was like—
GIN JENNY: No, I just— [LAUGHTER] I didn’t mean, no. Just, when I got to the part where she starts thinking about the husband, her landlord, in a physical sense, I said aloud, please don’t have an affair with this guy.
WHISKEY JENNY: I also was like, oh no, they’re going to bang. Please don’t bang. Please don’t bang. Oh no, they’re going to bang.
GIN JENNY: But they did.
WHISKEY JENNY: And then they did. It feels icky.
GIN JENNY: It felt so icky. And it felt icky top to bottom.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, soup to nuts it was icky.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, there was no point at which I thought like, oh, there’s some redeeming quality to it.
WHISKEY JENNY: No. No.
GIN JENNY: It was really gross. It was exploitative on his part because she’s his tenant. It was super gross for her to do, because she’s become friendly with the little girl.
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, and she knows that—she’s living in this married couple’s house.
GIN JENNY: Yes!
WHISKEY JENNY: It’s also gross to do because she knows that he’s married.
GIN JENNY: And also, I mean, just from a self-interest perspective, it seems very obvious this is going to go badly.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, this is not going to go great.
GIN JENNY: And it does, indeed, go badly.
WHISKEY JENNY: I think she tries really hard to justify to herself that Marcus’s wife is not a good person, and is a gentrifying white person. And she for a while doesn’t ever call her by name and calls her the landlady, but Marcus still gets a name, basically. And ties herself in knots to talk about how she doesn’t feel guilty about sleeping with Marcus because Samantha’s not great. And that felt really uncomfortable to me, as well.
GIN JENNY: It also felt like a very lit-ficcy trope, and I really don’t like this trope, where bored people have boring affairs to feel better about themselves, is one of my least favorite tropes. And it happens a lot in literary fiction. And I hate it so much. I don’t know if that makes me a prude or whatever, but I really, really hate it. It bums me out so much.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, I didn’t love it in this one, either. Just everyone in this book is so unhappy.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, they’re so unhappy, and they are not taking steps to make themselves happier.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah.
GIN JENNY: I couldn’t even see a path—that’s what I’m saying. Like with Penelope, I couldn’t even see a path to her being less miserable, because I couldn’t figure out anything in the world that she didn’t hate.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, it was rough. Everyone’s unhappy. There’s a lot of alcoholism, as well.
GIN JENNY: Oh yes! Yeah, she drinks a lot. I was not expecting that.
WHISKEY JENNY: She drinks a lot. Her father drinks a lot. People are constantly blacking out. That was tough as well.
GIN JENNY: And I had no idea that was the case going in. And when I was reading it, I was like, Jesus! I mean, she would keep a bottle of gin under her—
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, a lot of straight gin that I was like, oh that is—
GIN JENNY: Yeah, and she would keep it under her bed.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. It was also really hard to read about her father’s current life, not leaving the house for four months.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, he’s in very bad physical shape. He had the fall down the stairs, which messed him up physically. And then he has another accident, right? While she’s there.
WHISKEY JENNY: Right before she comes home, I think.
GIN JENNY: Right. Before she comes home he has another accident. And that’s why she comes home. And then—I guess this is a spoiler, but it’s such a not plotty book that I don’t think it’s too revealing to say that her father eventually has another—
WHISKEY JENNY: Another fall. And his life before she got there, he didn’t leave the house for four months, and it just seems really—
GIN JENNY: Very grim.
WHISKEY JENNY: Very grim, yeah. I don’t feel like the cover matches the tone of this book.
GIN JENNY: Not at all! Yeah, I thought it was going to be a little—I didn’t think it was going to be a happy book, because obviously the subject matter is sad, but I don’t think it was going to be quite this grim.
I will say, having criticized this book for using some very lit-ficcy tropes, it’s great that there is a book in the world like this about an unmotivated lapsed artist unsympathetic protagonist who’s a black woman. Because there’s a million of these books about white guys, obviously. So to see the same kind of thing centering on a black woman was surprising, interesting. It’s still not a trope or subgenre that I care about, where it’s apathetic mean people moping around cities or suburbs. But since it’s a subgenre and people read it, I’m glad that there’s a version with a black woman as the main character.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah, agreed.
GIN JENNY: Hooray for that. I’m sorry, you obviously had reservations when I recommended this book, and I wish I’d just been like, nope, let’s read something different.
WHISKEY JENNY: It did sound pretty heavy. But as you say, I’m glad it exists. And you know, I think it’s important to read heavy books sometimes, and for me in particular not to an ostrich. Because I have a strong tendency to ostrich a lot.
GIN JENNY: And like we said, not that the book failed, but that it’s just not a type of book that I enjoy.
WHISKEY JENNY: Exactly.
GIN JENNY: Well, what are we reading for next time?
WHISKEY JENNY: Well, because I wanted something a lot different tonally, I decided why don’t we read a fun YA that we’ve both been wanting to read.
GIN JENNY: Yes!
WHISKEY JENNY: Which is Undead Girl Gang, by Lily Anderson.
GIN JENNY: Woo!
WHISKEY JENNY: Which particularly astute listeners may remember was in my summer preview. But I promise Gin Jenny this is not just a ploy to up my numbers of how many summer books I read. And she did say that she also wanted to read it.
So this is the one where a teenage girl’s friend dies. Everyone thinks it was suicide, she does not. So she raises her from the dead along with some other people that died that night. And I think Ashley corrected us on the structure of the zombies, which is everyone can see them. It’s just they get all weird and zombie-ish if Mila is not within a certain distance from them. So yeah, I’m excited to read that take on this mythology and read about people coming back from the dead where they’re not a horrible, misshapen, dark, soulless version of their previous selves.
GIN JENNY: Yeah, and they solve a murder!
WHISKEY JENNY: And they solve their own murder.
GIN JENNY: Sounds great.
WHISKEY JENNY: Yeah. This has been the Reading the End bookcast with the demographically similar Jennys. You can visit the blog at readingtheend.com. You can follow us on Twitter @readingtheend. We’re both on Goodreads as Whiskey Jenny and Gin Jenny. You can email us, please do, at readingtheend@gmail.com. And if you like what we do, you can become a podcast patron at patreon.com/readingtheend. And if you’re listening to us on iTunes, please leave us a review.
Until next time, a quote from The House of Broken Angels, by Luis Alberto Urrea. “There were other things, though. There were always more details trailing any good story, like tin cans on the back bumper of a newlyweds’ car, rattles and pings and wonderful moments spinning in the wake of a great life, things they would talk about forever.”
[GLASSES CLINKING]THEME SONG: You don’t judge a book by its cover. Page one’s not a much better view. And shortly you’re gonna discover the middle won’t mollify you. So whether whiskey’s your go-to or you’re like my gin-drinking friend, no matter what you are imbibing, you’ll be better off in the end reading the end.